Do you believe in UFOs?

[George Szaszvari]

Sorry, Alex, but I don't like that one.

Well, I have Niels Bohr on my side. I'm less hesitant to provide references for statements I make.

Oh yes, nice one Alex. However, is Bohr's strategy gonna work against an instinctive fighter who has no qualms
about getting the job done? He/she (remember Sharon Stone in "The Quick and the Dead") would not suffer the
faltering decision making phase. In martial arts, especially Japanese swordsmanship, it is known as "mushien" or
no-mind. One trains to very specifically send the intent and instantly act on it, unencumbered by doubts. All
actions become surprisingly instinctive. I'm afraid Neils Bohr watched too many Hollywood movies and wouldn't
stand a chance against the guy on my side http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hujvVmuLuoM

[Paul McKeown]

George,

I get the feeling that you have been studying at the feet of a great Sensei in the mystical art of the facepalm.

[Nick Thomas]

[
Oh I see. Thanks for your reply. BTW I don't think you should be concerned about being ridiculed for quoting specific sources of good quality evidence.

Please get it right. It is one thing to stick my own neck out on stating my own position, but
I'm loath to give specific references just to have them ridiculed here

Oh I see. Thanks for your reply. BTW I don't think you should be concerned about your references being ridiculed if they are good sources of evidence.

[George Szaszvari]

George,

I get the feeling that you have been studying at the feet of a great Sensei in the mystical art of the facepalm.

You are so very astute, Paul. Trust that instinctive first feeling, man

[Nick Thomas]

Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence. With no evidence at all shown, i am not going to believe your remarkable claims. Continual refusal to show your evidence does nothing to help your position.

There is nothing particularly "remarkable" about healing, certainly not more than existence itself.
You want evidence, you go find it. You've been given pointers, now do your own work. Should you
insist on having a secondhand reality served up to you on a platter, then good luck. And why does
my position need help? You're the one looking for help.

What is remarkable is that claims such as remote/psychic healing, the existence of God, perpetual motion machines, life after death, Uri Geller stuff etc are contrary to the laws of physics. I require extraordinary evidence to prove the existence of a perpetual motion machine because the existing evidence for its non existence is overwhelming. It is not sufficient to say that there is nothing extraordinary about machines.

[Nick Thomas]

You'd have to do decades of research to prove me wrong, and you'd be dead by then!

Yeah, but we could continue on the Astral Plane .... you do realize, of course, that consciousness survives
physical death, right?

Not sure if this was meant to be a joke but I hope it was.
I think one of the reasons you are unable to apply critical thinking George is that you confuse "open mind" with "credulous mind". A truly open minded person is able to assess new evidence, reassess their stance if necessary and change their view. Someone who is prone to accept something on faith and who requires little or no evidence to believe is not open minded but simply credulous.

[George Szaszvari]

[
Oh I see. Thanks for your reply. BTW I don't think you should be concerned about being ridiculed for quoting specific sources of good quality evidence.

Please get it right. It is one thing to stick my own neck out on stating my own position, but
I'm loath to give specific references just to have them ridiculed here

Oh I see. Thanks for your reply. BTW I don't think you should be concerned about your references being ridiculed if they are good sources of evidence.

No, you don't see. Here is one reference for you, but I don't think you'll see it as "evidence" of any kind
(but one never knows):

HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember, when
I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?” They
said to Him, “Twelve.” “When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken
pieces did you pick up?” And they said to Him, “Seven.” And He was saying to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

[IM Jack Rudd]

No, you don't see. Here is one reference for you, but I don't think you'll see it as "evidence" of any kind
(but one never knows):

HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember, when
I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?” They
said to Him, “Twelve.” “When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken
pieces did you pick up?” And they said to Him, “Seven.” And He was saying to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

We probably all know the story of the loaves and the fishes; what precisely are you trying to achieve by bringing it into this discussion?

[Nick Thomas]

No, you don't see. Here is one reference for you, but I don't think you'll see it as "evidence" of any kind
(but one never knows):

Actually George every time you post I see more and more clearly. I certainly did see your reference as evidence of a kind but probably not of what you had intended.

[George Szaszvari]

You'd have to do decades of research to prove me wrong, and you'd be dead by then!

Yeah, but we could continue on the Astral Plane .... you do realize, of course, that consciousness survives
physical death, right?

Not sure if this was meant to be a joke but I hope it was.
I think one of the reasons you are unable to apply critical thinking George is that you confuse "open mind" with "credulous mind". A truly open minded person is able to assess new evidence, reassess their stance if necessary and change their view. Someone who is prone to accept something on faith and who requires little or no evidence to believe is not open minded but simply credulous.

No, it's no joke, but at the same time I don't expect you, or other skeptics here, to take it seriously, but
that's okay. I consider myself pretty strict about not allowing myself to be bullshitted by charlatans and
wishful thinking, and I'm not looking for the approval of others or anyone to agree with me. In fact I prefer
honest skepticism to weak minded nincompoops. It is interesting to observe reactions here as part of the
general human condition, without having any expectations (except for perhaps a modicum of civility, which
I hope we can all still offer to one another.) Anyway, you talk about credulity and faith, but I'm talking
about things experienced, seen, felt, touched, etc. Sure, I may not be able to prove it "scientifically",
or even want to, if I could, but simply because others don't believe them, am I supposed to deny my own
experiences?

[George Szaszvari]

No, you don't see. Here is one reference for you, but I don't think you'll see it as "evidence" of any kind
(but one never knows):

HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember, when
I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces you picked up?” They
said to Him, “Twelve.” “When I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of broken
pieces did you pick up?” And they said to Him, “Seven.” And He was saying to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

We probably all know the story of the loaves and the fishes; what precisely are you trying to achieve by bringing it into this discussion?

I find your reactions puzzling. I thought it obvious that I'm highlighting the point concerning understanding
and perception beyond the usual, which is the spiritual, if not intellectual, heart of this thread. A good, if
well known, example that I hope you don't consider too politically incorrect or troublesome for others. Even
if growing up with scripture was considered normal in my youth, I realize it is a bit old fashioned nowadays,
and it can become boorish if made a habit of, but occasionally, as in this case, the key words seemed to
hit the nail on right on the head much better than I could word it. While I do my best to retain civility and
humor, any time people here collectively feel too uncomfortable with free speech and differing points of
view they can just let me know and I'll disappear out of all your lives. At the moment I feel there is some
interesting discourse in the contrasting views of how the unusual is perceived. Don't you agree?

[IM Jack Rudd]

While I do my best to retain civility and
humor, any time people here collectively feel too uncomfortable with free speech and differing points of
view they can just let me know and I'll disappear out of all your lives.

I am perfectly fine with free speech and differing points of view. You have freely posted up some controversial opinions, and several other people have posted up their disagreement with your controversial opinions. That's free speech operating pretty much perfectly.

(With the usual caveat that you don't actually have a right to free speech on a privately-owned internet forum anyway, unless of course you are the owner.)

[William Metcalfe]

I have a severe form of Arthritus that causes me acute pain i have used every pain killer under the sun from asprin to morphine.The two things that reduced my pain the most was a short course of acupuncture unfortunatly it only worked for 4/5 months after that my body adjusted to it like it has with reg pain meds.
The other relatively pain free period i had was 2 holidays i spent in Texas the dry heat helped me a lot and the effect lasted for a month after i got home.

[George Szaszvari]

I have a severe form of Arthritus that causes me acute pain i have used every pain killer under the sun from asprin to morphine.The two things that reduced my pain the most was a short course of acupuncture unfortunatly it only worked for 4/5 months after that my body adjusted to it like it has with reg pain meds.
The other relatively pain free period i had was 2 holidays i spent in Texas the dry heat helped me a lot and the effect lasted for a month after i got home.

Apart from various others I've known who swear by traditional Chinese medicine, and some who graduated
in TCM acupuncture studies, my wife has also deferred to a reputable acupuncturist to successfully deal with
some severe muscle strain issues that were not responding to more conventional treatments. Despite some
negative reports in places like the Badscience website, TCM is a lot more popular than some might suppose.
Regarding the dry heat, any time you feel you can drop by Phoenix, Arizona, I'll gladly drive you around the
sights, etc, as I've done for other UK visitors (and I promise to not mention UFOs.)

[George Szaszvari]

I am perfectly fine with free speech and differing points of view. You have freely posted up some controversial opinions, and several other people have posted up their disagreement with your controversial opinions. That's free speech operating pretty much perfectly.

I didn't know that I was "that" controversial on this thread, having deliberately avoided certain other,
more notorious, issues, but I suppose that I ought to be grateful that you did not, at least, address me
as "Poppycock" this time round

(With the usual caveat that you don't actually have a right to free speech on a privately-owned internet
forum anyway, unless of course you are the owner.)

Point taken. So who owns it? How does one buy it?