Well, you can check it. The pairings are available on chess-results, the FIDE pairing rules are also public.Nigel White wrote:Given today's controversy, the question I asked in my post on Sunday was apposite. There was no answer provided on the forum. In the YouTube interview just released, Brian Callaghan, implies that the pairings were just a normal product of the program used - however, given my earlier observations, I'm not sure I believe that.Nigel White wrote:Does anyone know the pairing rules being used? Casual observation suggests that in earlier rounds there have been more all female pairings than would otherwise have been expected. However, the just published Round 7 pairings do not seem to have followed this trend.
Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
- IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
- IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
If I understand FIDE's regulations correctly, it would be legal for a norm tournament to use a pairing system that took players' sexes into account, but this would have to be announced in the tournament regulations, and a detailed description of the pairing system would have to be published.
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Chris Rice
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Even if it was biased pairings why is Hou Yifan so upset she had to play so many women? There was a massive prize for the leading woman so she had a big say in who would win that prize. Her arguments make no sense at all, the claim that she threw the last round game for all women players is pathetic. I wasn't aware that any of the other women complained and I suspect the real reason she did what she did is that she lost to Ju Wenjun and couldn't take it.
- Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
How long would it take to check the pairings for the whole tournament: (a) manually; and (b) using a computer paring program (not necessarily the one used, but if they are programmed the same way it shouldn't make a difference, should it)?IM Jack Rudd wrote:Well, you can check it. The pairings are available on chess-results, the FIDE pairing rules are also public.Nigel White wrote:Given today's controversy, the question I asked in my post on Sunday was apposite. There was no answer provided on the forum. In the YouTube interview just released, Brian Callaghan, implies that the pairings were just a normal product of the program used - however, given my earlier observations, I'm not sure I believe that.Nigel White wrote:Does anyone know the pairing rules being used? Casual observation suggests that in earlier rounds there have been more all female pairings than would otherwise have been expected. However, the just published Round 7 pairings do not seem to have followed this trend.
- Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
I agree. Who did win the women's prize in the end? I can't find a site that flags all the women who were participating in the Masters.Chris Rice wrote:Even if it was biased pairings why is Hou Yifan so upset she had to play so many women? There was a massive prize for the leading woman so she had a big say in who would win that prize. Her arguments make no sense at all, the claim that she threw the last round game for all women players is pathetic. I wasn't aware that any of the other women complained and I suspect the real reason she did what she did is that she lost to Ju Wenjun and couldn't take it.
(Are some of the games still going?)
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
At a quick glance:Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I agree. Who did win the women's prize in the end? I can't find a site that flags all the women who were participating in the Masters.Chris Rice wrote:Even if it was biased pairings why is Hou Yifan so upset she had to play so many women? There was a massive prize for the leading woman so she had a big say in who would win that prize. Her arguments make no sense at all, the claim that she threw the last round game for all women players is pathetic. I wasn't aware that any of the other women complained and I suspect the real reason she did what she did is that she lost to Ju Wenjun and couldn't take it.
(Are some of the games still going?)
7 Ju Wenjun
6.5 Lahno, Muzychuk A, Stefanova, Zatonskih
6 Javakhishvili, Muzychuk M, Yifan,
5.5 Gunina (still playing)
EDIT: Gunina won to reach 6.5.
Last edited by LawrenceCooper on Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
So Hou Yifan threw that game to give other women more prize money? Yeah, I know, it's not that, but I'm not clear why. Has she given a clear and unequivocal answer? Presumably if she had won, she would have lost out on tie-break to Ju Wenjun. Are there any elements of internal politicking in China at play here?
- JustinHorton
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Why do we need to make up reasons for her? Why not take her grievance at face value? You're not obliged to agree with her, but dismissing her sincerity out of hand is a bit much.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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Peter Shaw
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Discounting the 1st round (clearly not 'fixed' as the players are obviously in rating order), and the game against Adams, all of Hou's remaining 8 opponents were rated between 2440 and 2600. I count 54 players in that range, of which 13 are women. Assuming I still know how to work these things out, the chances of meeting 6 women in those 8 rounds would be about 1 in 740. Unlikely, but hardly impossible.
- Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Has she given a clear and unequivocal answer? (I'm not questioning whether she has, just asking what it is.) Is there a transcript of the interview anywhere?JustinHorton wrote:Why do we need to make up reasons for her? Why not take her grievance at face value? You're not obliged to agree with her, but dismissing her sincerity out of hand is a bit much.
OK, this will have to do:
http://en.chessbase.com/post/gibraltar-flash
So she confirmed it was a protest about the pairings. I thought that had just been speculation, but I see she has confirmed it. I'll accept that at face value, yeah. Don't really understand it, but I accept that is her reason.
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
It's calling into account the integrity of the arbiters to be able to input and output the pairings data without tampering with it. Alternatively and possibly with some merit, it's calling into question the rules developed by FIDE and others for performing pairings.JustinHorton wrote: Why not take her grievance at face value?
Whether rightly or wrongly, pairing rules take no account of gender. That means that if a player gets a run of a opponents of a particular gender, that's because of their respective PINs (initial seeding order).
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Alan Walton
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
If you actually look at all the rounds, and look above and below for the ratings; it looks like it is just a total coindicence, actually in some rounds the next player available above and below was another femalePeter Shaw wrote:Discounting the 1st round (clearly not 'fixed' as the players are obviously in rating order), and the game against Adams, all of Hou's remaining 8 opponents were rated between 2440 and 2600. I count 54 players in that range, of which 13 are women. Assuming I still know how to work these things out, the chances of meeting 6 women in those 8 rounds would be about 1 in 740. Unlikely, but hardly impossible.
- JustinHorton
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Well, that's been done before, and we've all managed to live with it.Roger de Coverly wrote:It's calling into account the integrity of the arbiters
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
Pairings are deterministic rather than random. It's rather more a question that if you are the seed x, what are the chances of meeting seeds a,b,c,d etc?Peter Shaw wrote: Assuming I still know how to work these things out, the chances of meeting 6 women in those 8 rounds would be about 1 in 740. Unlikely, but hardly impossible.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Tradewise Gibraltar Masters 2017
"Discounting the 1st round (clearly not 'fixed' as the players are obviously in rating order),"
Well, actually it is "fixed" (or maybe random) as the lower rated players on the top 10 boards are not in order. But they always do that apparently. There were some pairings at the bottom which didn't seem to fit, but I assume that was a case of pairing late arrivals? I think Yifan was sufficiently low down that she got the "right" pairing. Rounds 2 and 3 look right as well, I'll leave someone else to look at the rest.
I once played 4 women in the first 6 rounds in Warsaw, and once played all 3 Ledgers in the space of 4 rounds at a Rapidplay somewhere less exotic. I don't think it was a conspiracy.
Well, actually it is "fixed" (or maybe random) as the lower rated players on the top 10 boards are not in order. But they always do that apparently. There were some pairings at the bottom which didn't seem to fit, but I assume that was a case of pairing late arrivals? I think Yifan was sufficiently low down that she got the "right" pairing. Rounds 2 and 3 look right as well, I'll leave someone else to look at the rest.
I once played 4 women in the first 6 rounds in Warsaw, and once played all 3 Ledgers in the space of 4 rounds at a Rapidplay somewhere less exotic. I don't think it was a conspiracy.