Kasparov vs Ilyumzhinov: the FIDE Presidency battle begins

[Nigel Short]

And you assume that the Continental Elections are totally unrelated to the FIDE Election?

I don't think that a decision on Gabon impinges on an Asian election, but that isn't the main point. You have portrayed him as an unprincipled person, and if that were the case then it would have been equally true six months ago when Leong, who knows him well, seconded his nomination.

Nick, try answering the question for a change. The Gabon decision obviously has nothing to do with the Asian Election; however it has everything to do with the FIDE Presidential Election. Now concentrate hard and try and focus on the question before you. Are you trying to pretend that the Continental Elections and Presidential Elections are unrelated?

[Roger de Coverly]

He should certainly recuse himself from cases which impinge on the Asian election. What makes you think he won't?

Is the Electoral Commission not there to oversee the election process in its broadest sense as the FIDE election of officers in 2014? From that viewpoint, having one of its members also a candidate in one of the several elections doesn't seem right. It's like an arbiter playing in his or her own tournament.

[NickFaulks]

Is the Electoral Commission not there to oversee the election process in its broadest sense as the FIDE election of officers in 2014?

Unlike Short, you have asked a question that is intelligible. My answer is that it had never occurred to me that the Electoral Commission would be expected to take even a passing interest in Continental elections. I do not believe that my own Continent has considered that possibilty, and doubt that the ECU would countenance it. If I am wrong, then my opinion on Bharat Singh's position might have to change, but I don't think I am.

The more interesting decision concerns whether he should recuse himself from decisions involving his own Continent. When there are two delegations competing for official recognition, the Continent is under no compulsion to follow FIDE's lead when deciding which one to seat. However, it might be argued that they will be influenced in that direction, and in my opinion he should protect his position.

[Roger de Coverly]

My answer is that it had never occurred to me that the Electoral Commission would be expected to take even a passing interest in Continental elections.

Consulting the Handbook at
http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... ew=article

In 2.2 it says

2.2 The members of the ELE constituted for an election cannot be elected or nominated to any Presidential Board position in that election.

which is ambiguous as it doesn't define whether "any Presidential Board position" relates only to the candidates for FIDE President and their tickets or whether it includes the second tier of Continental Presidents and Boards.

[NickFaulks]

2.2 The members of the ELE constituted for an election cannot be elected or nominated to any Presidential Board position in that election.

which is ambiguous as it doesn't define whether "any Presidential Board position" relates only to the candidates for FIDE President and their tickets or whether it includes the second tier of Continental Presidents and Boards.

I see your point, although I don't think it has been mentioned before. Continental President is an ex-officio PB position, so perhaps ELE members cannot run for that. I don't see how that extends to other members of the ticket, though.

Edit. The point must be that you can't be on both PB and ELE, which is straightforward enough.

[David Sedgwick]

My answer is that it had never occurred to me that the Electoral Commission would be expected to take even a passing interest in Continental elections. I do not believe that my own Continent has considered that possibilty, and doubt that the ECU would countenance it. If I am wrong, then my opinion on Bharat Singh's position might have to change, but I don't think I am.

The more interesting decision concerns whether he should recuse himself from decisions involving his own Continent. When there are two delegations competing for official recognition, the Continent is under no compulsion to follow FIDE's lead when deciding which one to seat. However, it might be argued that they will be influenced in that direction, and in my opinion he should protect his position.

Nominations for election as a Continental President have to be submitted to the FIDE Office in Athens, so I would have thought that those positions at least were within the Electoral Commission's remit.

In my opinion Mr Singh would be well advised to recuse himself from all the decisions, including that relating to Gabon.

As I understand the situation, there are currently issues about four Federations: Gabon, Afghanistan, Papua New Guinea and Vietnam. Let us suppose that Mr Singh recuses himself only in the three Asian cases and that the Electoral Commission decides in favour of Kasparov in those three cases, but in favour of Ilyumzhinov regarding Gabon. There could be sound objective reasons for that different outcome, even though it's currently difficult to imagine what they might be. Nevertheless it will appear to all the world that the reason for the difference was the presence of Mr Singh.

[Mike Truran]

Could one of the great and the good (Nigel? Nick? David?) explain to the mere Lumpenprolateriat what on earth these exchanges are about??!!

If possible in words of one syllable. We peasants struggle with long words.

[Roger de Coverly]

Could one of the great and the good (Nigel? Nick? David?) explain to the mere Lumpenprolateriat what on earth these exchanges are about??!!

As I hope every one knows, FIDE runs its "democracy" on the basis of one vote for every national Federation. Whilst one might expect that the identity of the National Federation and who was authorised to cast its vote were well established, this seems not to be the case in practice. The FIDE office are being accused of changing the identity of the voter and in one case the organisation itself without satisfying themselves that they hadn't been the victims of identity theft. In other words checking that they had not acted on a fake authorisation. The political angle is that these attempted frauds don't seem to be happening randomly, but have a curious coincidence with declarations of support for the Kasparov ticket.

A possible analogy would be if the 4NCL announced itself as a Kirsan supporter (not that it would) and then wrote to FIDE saying it had taken over from the ECF as national chess body. FIDE then saying, right, fine.

[Nigel Short]

Excellent analogy, Roger!

To give another analogy on the process of daylight robbery that is taking place: it is as if one player, who happens also to be the arbiter, is removing a number of his opponent's pieces before the start of play. A loud-mouthed Bermudan spectator, with a servile admiration for that same player/arbiter, while pleading ignorance on the blatant transgressions taking place before his eyes, noisily proclaims that the appeals committee - which happens also to be biased - will ensure that justice is done.

[Roger de Coverly]

As I understand the situation, there are currently issues about four Federations: Gabon, Afghanistan, Papua New Guinea and Vietnam.

In the case of Papua New Guinea, FIDE have removed all contact information from the directory. It's an example of a chess club sized federation with 18 registered players, only 8 of whom have any form of FIDE rating. But I suppose if you gave an English chess club a vote in an International election, perhaps even a valuable vote, you might get schisms as to how that vote should be exercised.

Comparing them to a English club might be unfair, as they may have any number of players without FIDE registration. Small English county perhaps.

[JustinHorton]

A loud-mouthed Bermudan spectator, with a servile admiration

I wonder if this discussion could proceed without further personal abuse?

[Michael Farthing]

That would be like trampling in fresh snow..

[Chris Rice]

Great article on the Chess Drum site regarding "Gabon-Gate" the origins of the dispute go right back to a "zero tolerance" dispute at the Dresden Olympiad in 2008. In short the ADEG (pro-Kasparov) have been eliminated and with FIDE's assistance been replaced with the AGE who will no doubt vote for Kirsan in the Tromso elections. http://www.thechessdrum.net/blog/2014/0 ... abon-gate/

[Paolo Casaschi]

I wonder if this discussion could proceed without further personal abuse?

Probably not. If you remove personal abuse and negative propaganda, what is left?

I mean, if you set aside the negative propaganda (for example: the other is corrupt, the other is a self-absorbed fool, the other will bankrupt FIDE, all self evident apparently) and the vague promises (for example: alien support and corporate sponsorship, without showing a clear picture of either), I'm not sure what's the practical implication of this election for the average ECF member in the next few years; the average ECF member being John, a 160 ECF chess amateur playing every year some congresses and some leagues, rather than the few professional GMs.

What do we know either Presidential candidate will do differently that will impact average John?

They both want to support school programs (John, about 50+ years old, probably does not really care).
They both want to introduce a universal rating system (again, John probably only cares about the ECF grading used for leagues selections and congress entry).
They both want to expand Internet chess play (as if John does not have already a dozen of dormant accounts on that many chess servers).
What else?

[Roger de Coverly]

What else?

One of them made a speech advocating zero time default across all forms of chess. In my view, that shows such poor judgement as to permanently disqualify him from any chess office. It's not helped that the rival candidate had adopted as co-runner, the second greatest advocate of this policy, but you might hope that an ex-world champion would show respect for the history and traditions of chess, something the existing president has a track record of disrespecting from when he first became president nineteen years ago.