Norm information

[John Upham]

I probably ought to know this but...

Is there a FIDE or other resource that lists norms awarded to who and when? I'm specifically looking for information about players requiring norms to complete their titles.

Thanks for your assistance!

[Roger de Coverly]

Is there a FIDE or other resource that lists norms awarded to who and when? I'm specifically looking for information about players requiring norms to complete their titles.

In theory they are on the FIDE site. For example http://ratings.fide.com/title_norms.pht ... ountry=ENG

In practice the lists are incomplete.

I believe the ECF has its own private list which is believed complete. I've seen it mentioned, posted in a document even. I'm not sure if it's anywhere on a web page.

[Adam Raoof]

The best thing to do is contact Howard Grist - if it may be a useful resource that we should be publishing on the ECF website then let us know.

[Paul Dargan]

I thought that Loz had been trying to collate all of this info recently?

He circulated a couple of draft lists previously and asked for additions/ corrections.


Paul

[John Upham]

Thanks for the responses. I'm puzzled that FIDE cannot provide this information. Is it not FIDE that grants norms?

Have they mislaid information?

[Mick Norris]

I assume FIDE grant titles not norms, and only check norms with title applications, so the home federation (e.g. ECF) would have the norm info (assuming the organisers have passed the info on)

[Sean Hewitt]

Thanks for the responses. I'm puzzled that FIDE cannot provide this information. Is it not FIDE that grants norms?

Have they mislaid information?

No, FIDE don't grant norms. It's the Chief Arbiter at an individual event that issues the norm certificate.

FIDE award titles upon receipt of a valid claim, appropriate number of norms certificates, and of course payment!

[John Upham]

Thanks to those who have clarified matters and educated me!

So, to answer ARs question, it would be useful if the ECF was able to list this information.

[Alex McFarlane]

Just to argue slightly with Sean. It doesn't have to be the Chief Arbiter who completes the norm certificate but usually is. However the national Federation of the event also has to countersign the norm certificate and therefore, presumably, could block a norm.

[Roger de Coverly]

However the national Federation of the event also has to countersign the norm certificate and therefore, presumably, could block a norm.

When is it expected that FIDE should be informed of potential norms? There's a list of norms by English players at the FIDE site but it's obviously incomplete. Under GM norms, Hawkins isn't listed. Some names are there, Adam Hunt from Canterbury 2010 for instance.

[Alex McFarlane]

I don't know how FIDE deals with these. I believe that the Hawkins norm was sent at the same time as the rating report or very shortly after.
I've had a number of examples of 'my' norm certificates only appearing when the title was applied for.

[Sean Hewitt]

Just to argue slightly with Sean. It doesn't have to be the Chief Arbiter who completes the norm certificate but usually is. However the national Federation of the event also has to countersign the norm certificate and therefore, presumably, could block a norm.

Alex - I'm going by the FIDE handbook which states

1.8 Title Tournament Certificates
The Chief Arbiter must prepare in quadruplicate certificates of title results achieved. These copies must be provided to theplayer, the player’s federation, the organizing federation and the FIDE Office. The player is recommended to ask the Chief Arbiter for the certificate before leaving the tournament.
The Chief Arbiter is responsible for that TRF file must be submitted to FIDE.

When is it expected that FIDE should be informed of potential norms? There's a list of norms by English players at the FIDE site but it's obviously incomplete. Under GM norms, Hawkins isn't listed. Some names are there, Adam Hunt from Canterbury 2010 for instance.

Roger, I think it's 6 months after the event without a problem(1.96 specifies that as the deadline) although they can still be accepted after that with the agreement of the appropriate Chairman

1.9 Submission of Reports on Title Tournaments
1.91 Such tournaments must be registered as in 1.11.
1.92 The Chief Arbiter of a FIDE registered tournament is responsible for uploading the tournament report (TRF file) to the FIDE rating server not later than 30 days after the end of the event.
1.93 If a tournament is not registered in advance with FIDE only the Federation of the country where the tournament was held may send in the results. The results shall only be included by agreement with the Chairman of the QC.
1.94 The end of a tournament is the date of the last round and the deadline for submitting the tournament shall be calculated from that date.
1.95 If the Rating Administrator finds that the report is defective to the extent that it has to be returned for correction, the corrected report must be mailed to the Secretariat within four weeks of the date indicated by the Rating Administrator. Failure to do this will mean that the event was not reported for rating.
1.96 Reports sent in more than six months late will not be accepted for rating or title purposes without the agreement of the chairman of the Qualification Commission.
1.97 Federations submitting rating reports must submit all the games played in the tournament together with the report, if available. The games may be submitted either on paper or, preferably, in a standard chess database electronic format.

[Adam Raoof]

However the national Federation of the event also has to countersign the norm certificate and therefore, presumably, could block a norm.

When is it expected that FIDE should be informed of potential norms? There's a list of norms by English players at the FIDE site but it's obviously incomplete. Under GM norms, Hawkins isn't listed. Some names are there, Adam Hunt from Canterbury 2010 for instance.

The problem is that if FIDE doesn't have a comprehensive list, it is unlikely anyone else could compile one.

A combination of organisers and players reporting norms directly to Howard Grist and Loz Cooper monitoring international reports might produce the best list from an English point of view.

On the subject of norms, does anyone have the time to check whether FM John Richardson ever made it to 2400+ during the course of one of his 5 (I think) IM norm events, and therefore might be eligible for the IM title?

[John Upham]

does anyone have the time to check whether FM John Richardson ever made it to 2400+ during the course of one of his 5 (I think) IM norm events, and therefore might be eligible for the IM title?

Does this (and related tasks) fall within the remit of the ECF IRO? If not, whose remit is it?

[Adam Raoof]

does anyone have the time to check whether FM John Richardson ever made it to 2400+ during the course of one of his 5 (I think) IM norm events, and therefore might be eligible for the IM title?

Does this (and related tasks) fall within the remit of the ECF IRO? If not, whose remit is it?

It does, but since the only reason some players are eligible for titles retrospectively is that FIDE changed the regulations for titles. Players used to have to get a published rating of 2400+. Now that just has to be a performance rating.

So a lot of data has been mislaid, temporarily - for instance one of John's norms was I think at Hampstead - which I organised. I can't lay my hands on the paperwork, but I know someone out there will have it!

FIDE list of title norms submitted - http://ratings.fide.com/title_norms.phtml