Sexism in chess
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Re: Sexism in chess
>>Is there a name for this custom of men discussing matters that primarily concern women?
Most but not all junior chess organisers are men. If they think it would be nice to have more girls entering events and then returning (and I think most do), it makes sense to think (and discuss) about how to structure events in a way that makes him them attractive and enjoyable to young girls coming along to play in a tournament.
IMO, the article is not that impressive in its logic (in another world I am involved in as a parent, of competitive dance, you could have the same discussion on ratios in reverse, but I doubt the Guardian would frame it in the same way). As a general observer of the world, it is also reasonable to observe that the likelihood of e.g. sexual harassment is probably (much) larger in film or theatre than chess, but despite that gender ratios are much more balanced there.
Most but not all junior chess organisers are men. If they think it would be nice to have more girls entering events and then returning (and I think most do), it makes sense to think (and discuss) about how to structure events in a way that makes him them attractive and enjoyable to young girls coming along to play in a tournament.
IMO, the article is not that impressive in its logic (in another world I am involved in as a parent, of competitive dance, you could have the same discussion on ratios in reverse, but I doubt the Guardian would frame it in the same way). As a general observer of the world, it is also reasonable to observe that the likelihood of e.g. sexual harassment is probably (much) larger in film or theatre than chess, but despite that gender ratios are much more balanced there.
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Re: Sexism in chess
To my knowledge there has been no survey of opinion of any kind on this topic. Many women in chess have experienced sexism (as they do in all male dominated areas of life) - do you think we should extrapolate that this is evidently the reason that females stop playing?JustinHorton wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:50 pmWell no, but that would be true of almost any formal or informal survey of opinion, no?
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Re: Sexism in chess
I think we should be giving quite a high priority to the experiences of women and girls.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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Re: Sexism in chess
That might be that chess players are, on the whole, not young athletic and handsome enough for them!Nick Burrows wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:40 pmWe don't know, because the vast majority are not asked. It's also more likely that we will hear about cases where there is a genuine grievance.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:29 pmIs this the explanation the women and girls give though
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Re: Sexism in chess
Hmmm is it allowed for an actual female to comment on this thread?!
I've heard that 'more girls give up' line trotted out a lot. What is never mentioned is that an awful lot of boys give up too. You just don't notice, unless the kid was one of the really outstanding ones. I've had students give up chess in order to pursue golf, e-sports, music, etc etc.
I've also heard that 'girls just don't like it' line too. Also not true. OK this is anecdote not data BUT I have several times been asked to coach a boy 'and can his sister come too' only to find the girl is better and more interested - but all the support, in terms of payment for lessons and books and trips to events, is for the boy. (What happens to strong girls without brothers I wonder?!). I have kids as young as 7 already spouting rubbish about not wanting to lose to a girl. They are learning this stuff at home and at school. Not in chess classes.
I could go on. Interminably!
I've heard that 'more girls give up' line trotted out a lot. What is never mentioned is that an awful lot of boys give up too. You just don't notice, unless the kid was one of the really outstanding ones. I've had students give up chess in order to pursue golf, e-sports, music, etc etc.
I've also heard that 'girls just don't like it' line too. Also not true. OK this is anecdote not data BUT I have several times been asked to coach a boy 'and can his sister come too' only to find the girl is better and more interested - but all the support, in terms of payment for lessons and books and trips to events, is for the boy. (What happens to strong girls without brothers I wonder?!). I have kids as young as 7 already spouting rubbish about not wanting to lose to a girl. They are learning this stuff at home and at school. Not in chess classes.
I could go on. Interminably!
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Re: Sexism in chess
It's always been a man's world. From time to time we had female players at our club and they often got funny looks by members, as if they didn't belong there or something. If more women made it to the very top, I think that would inspire a lot of girls. Whether they would stick at it I don't know. In some countries there seems to be a much greater balance than in England.
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Re: Sexism in chess
And even here its probably a *bit* better than it used to be, though yes progress is achingly slow.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
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Re: Sexism in chess
There certainly seems to be a sizable group of junior girls moving up and staying the course from the U12 to U16 age groups in England. I would think in 5 years a lot of these players will be titled and will provide some decent depth to English woman's chess. It's perhaps in response to this I'm starting to see some unique events popping up now - for example a woman's norm event scheduled in April. I don't recall seeing one of those in England before, although I'm sure there must have been?
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Re: Sexism in chess
That sounds good to me, but I hope they are prepared for criticism that such events are themselves sexist.Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:22 pmfor example a woman's norm event scheduled in April.
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Re: Sexism in chess
There have been, yes - Lawrence Cooper organized a few at the London Chess Classic over the years.Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:22 pmThere certainly seems to be a sizable group of junior girls moving up and staying the course from the U12 to U16 age groups in England. I would think in 5 years a lot of these players will be titled and will provide some decent depth to English woman's chess. It's perhaps in response to this I'm starting to see some unique events popping up now - for example a woman's norm event scheduled in April. I don't recall seeing one of those in England before, although I'm sure there must have been?
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Re: Sexism in chess
London Chess Classic Women's International 2009: http://www.londonchessclassic.com/2009/ ... tional.htmMatt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:22 pmThere certainly seems to be a sizable group of junior girls moving up and staying the course from the U12 to U16 age groups in England. I would think in 5 years a lot of these players will be titled and will provide some decent depth to English woman's chess. It's perhaps in response to this I'm starting to see some unique events popping up now - for example a woman's norm event scheduled in April. I don't recall seeing one of those in England before, although I'm sure there must have been?
e2e4.org.uk Uxbridge Womens's International 2010: https://ratings.fide.com/report.phtml?event=52532
London Chess Classic Women's International 2010: http://www.londonchessclassic.com/2010/ ... tional.htm
https://ratings.fide.com/report.phtml?event=55172
London Chess Classic Women's International 2011: https://ratings.fide.com/tournament_rep ... nt16=63579
London Chess Classic Women's International 2012: https://ratings.fide.com/report.phtml?event=71133
London Chess Classic Women's International 2013: https://ratings.fide.com/report.phtml?event=85828
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Re: Sexism in chess
"There have been, yes - Lawrence Cooper organized a few at the London Chess Classic over the years."
More than a few then!
More than a few then!
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Re: Sexism in chess
There are those (including some women) who do indeed argue that.NickFaulks wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:03 pmThat sounds good to me, but I hope they are prepared for criticism that such events are themselves sexist.Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:22 pmfor example a woman's norm event scheduled in April.
However, the best judge of this should be female chess players themselves - and it would appear most of them still see a need for such events.
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Re: Sexism in chess
I think ironically it seems much more likely England could have a internationally competitive Woman’s team than an Open team in ten years time, if people behind the scenes keep coming up with these imaginative development opportunities, like stringing woman’s norm events together when the players are ready and the timing is right.
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Re: Sexism in chess
At Pula in 1997, The English Women's team in the Euros was third. That was a three player squad, two playing in each match. The squad was Susan Lalic, Harriet Hunt and Ruth Sheldon. They repeated that feat at Leon in 2001 with Harriet on 1, Jovanka Houska 2 and Susan 3Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:31 pmI think ironically it seems much more likely England could have a internationally competitive Woman’s team than an Open team in ten years time,
The Open team did well also, winners in 1997,with a team of Short, Adams, Speelman, Sadler, Hodgson. In 2001 at Leon they were fourth with a team of Adams, Short, Speelman, Conquest and McShane.
Ten years later at Porto Carras, Greece, the open team (Adams, Short, Howell, Jones, Pert) was down at 22 (out of 38), whilst the Women's team ( Houska, Ciukskte, Yurenok, Bhatia, Hegarty) was also well down the order at 23 from 28.