Cheating in chess

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Mick Norris
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Mick Norris » Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:56 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:18 pm
Presumably they did some sort of update and the account got flagged up again (I was on chess.com earlier today and the site looked slightly different) - it happens to me all the time on bookmakers sites, I've got ones I have long since been banned from that re ban me periodically, but I tend to just find it amusing that they are so sloppy then feel the need to demand an appology.
If the apps not working, then an appology would seem the least they can do :wink:

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 am

This morning, I received four emails from chess.com in quick succession.

The first (0850 my time) was identical to the one I received yesterday.

The second (0858) was headed Congratulations Justinpatzer, you are now a premium member!

The third (0858) was headed Order receipt and began Your membership payment has been successfully processed.

The fourth (0900) was identical to the one I received yesterday.

You can see roughly what might be going on here, but it shouldn't be.
"Do you play chess?"
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Wadih Khoury
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:31 am

Not sure? Bug? Hack? Scam?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:45 am

"Not sure? Bug? Hack? Scam?"

Maybe - Obviously any organization that has fantastic IT powers that can identify cheats correctly 100 % of the time wouldn't send a burst of random and uncontrolled emails to people...

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:54 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 am
The second (0858) was headed Congratulations Justinpatzer, you are now a premium member!

The third (0858) was headed Order receipt and began Your membership payment has been successfully processed.
Have you actually renewed your membership?

A search of the members at chess.com didn't find a "Justinpatzer". What it did find was several people self identifying as "Justin Horton", one of whom even used it as a user name.

I could believe that that haven't told all parts of their IT systems that you've been reinstated, that one of the other Hortons has just renewed and that links between their playing system and membership accounting system aren't what they could be.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:36 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:54 am

A search of the members at chess.com didn't find a "Justinpatzer".
Justinpatzer
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:26 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:54 am


Have you actually renewed your membership?

A search of the members at chess.com didn't find a "Justinpatzer". What it did find was several people self identifying as "Justin Horton", one of whom even used it as a user name.

I could believe that that haven't told all parts of their IT systems that you've been reinstated, that one of the other Hortons has just renewed and that links between their playing system and membership accounting system aren't what they could be.
That does bring up an interesting point - a strong player could assume the identity of someone fairly weak, enter tournaments with a sandbagged rating and be in with a good chance of picking up grading prizes or even winning minor/intermediate sections outright without any engine use being detected as it would all be human play. Not sure why people would be imitating Justin for this purpose though as he is known to be an open strength player as far as I am aware but there are certainly many hundreds of names that would slip below the radar if someone were to try such a thing
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:54 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:20 am
The second (0858) was headed Congratulations Justinpatzer, you are now a premium member!

The third (0858) was headed Order receipt and began Your membership payment has been successfully processed.
Have you actually renewed your membership?
No, what happened was that when they reinstated me (earlier this year, can't immediately recall when) they gave me a years's Premium Membership.

My vague guess is that they were looking at inactive accounts as you suggested, that their system achieved the same result as it did before (because they've not revised it at all) and so I got barred again: after that who knows, some kind if bug triggering the sending of various emails I've bern sent before.

I guess I'll email again, but really I can't be doing with these people.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:54 am
What it did find was several people self identifying as "Justin Horton", one of whom even used it as a user name.
I am not sure whether to be amused or alarmed by this.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Simon Rogers
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:35 pm

Sounds alarmist Justin. Sounds like you have been hacked or someone has pinched your identity.
Some of these big corporations have weak firewalls.
In the past there was a couple of Dispatches programmes on Channel 4 about it.
Also some companies accidentally release personal data. Other companies just want to maximize profits.
I regularly clean my cache and clear tabs on my phone.
I'm not sure if you can do the same on a laptop.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:15 pm

Simon Rogers wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:35 pm
Sounds like you have been hacked
No it doesn't.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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John Upham
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Precise Criteria for Cheating Decision Making : 8 move cut-off

Post by John Upham » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm

I have been made aware of (at least) some of the criteria used to "decide" if a game has been played with external assistance.

One of those which struck me was the opening move cut-off is considered to be move 8.

i.e. moves 1-8 are disregarded and moves 9 onwards are considered to be ripe for analysis.

Therefore, if one was to play a line that theory is know to say move 25 then if you replicate moves 9 -25 then 16 moves may match with the engine used by the jury.

So you could play some well-known line of the Marshall Attack, Sveshnikov or anything with long forcing lines of theory and fall foul of the jury.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Precise Criteria for Cheating Decision Making : 8 move cut-off

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:18 pm

John Upham wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
So you could play some well-known line of the Marshall Attack, Sveshnikov or anything with long forcing lines of theory and fall foul of the jury.
Equally in say the Grob (1.g4), the Orang-Utan (1.b4), Sicilian sidelines ( 1. e4 c5 2. a3/Na3/b4), someone could switch an engine on to at least reach move 8 in one piece.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Precise Criteria for Cheating Decision Making : 8 move cut-off

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:22 pm

John Upham wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:07 pm
I have been made aware of (at least) some of the criteria used to "decide" if a game has been played with external assistance.

One of those which struck me was the opening move cut-off is considered to be move 8.

i.e. moves 1-8 are disregarded and moves 9 onwards are considered to be ripe for analysis.

Therefore, if one was to play a line that theory is know to say move 25 then if you replicate moves 9 -25 then 16 moves may match with the engine used by the jury.

So you could play some well-known line of the Marshall Attack, Sveshnikov or anything with long forcing lines of theory and fall foul of the jury.
I don't know who told you this, but they are probably just making it up. The typical software disregards any moves which have been played before (theory) and any forced moves (for instance after a blunder or in a position where you are just mating with a Queen + K vs K). What moves are left are "undecided" and those moves are matched to the first three choices of Stockfish, and compared against another program.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Cheating in chess

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:25 pm

Curiously I played a game just this afternoon against somebody who wiped me off the board with a zero score on the errors board, which is not in itself evidence of anything. They did seem to have won all their games up to then (which is also, in itself, not evidence of anything) and when I had a look at their account a few minutes ago it said "this account is closed" - nothing about using computer assistance or anything like that.

I mention this in part because when they do that, there's no games record to look at.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Precise Criteria for Cheating Decision Making : 8 move cut-off

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:32 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:22 pm
The typical software disregards any moves which have been played before (theory)
OK, but what is meant by (theory) here
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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