Black (Grandmaster) Lives Matter

[J T Melsom]

Well history throws up plenty of examples of extremists rising to power with assistance from the democratic process.

Be interesting to see how centrist the new Israeli govt actually is, given the Blue and White coalition partners haven't all got into office Of course one doesn't tend to see much coverage of Israeli politics in respect of social and economic policy. I doubt its a pre-cursor to a better deal for the Palestinians.

[John McKenna]

What is written immediately above possibly helps explain why Avrukh made the statement in the original post in this thread. Far from being purely racist the statement is probably primarily one born of political tribalism, perhaps with unintentional racist undertones, because...

Supporters of a Greater Israel (Eretz Yisrael - see below) are desperate to see Trump reelected in Nov. And, anyone who comes within their sphere and highlights anything that jeopardises the campaign to reelect the President must be opposed.

Carlsson might conceivably be opposed by Avrukh for being a fellow GM who, due to recent events, is seen as supporting a cause ("Black Lives Matter") that now endangers the reelection of Donald Trump and the establishment of a Greater Israel, with Jerusalem as its capital and the Palestinian Territories formally and legally incorporated into it under Israeli law (with only a limited degree of local autonomy still allowed and little or no international standing at all).

That will be a "no deal" for the Palestinians and an Anschluss for Israel. Netanyahu, and Putin, learned something from WWII and are putting it into practice in the West Bank, and the Crimea.

Israel's Defense Minister Benny Gantz has told the army to step up preparations in parts of the West Bank, heightening the sense the government stands ready to make a possible dramatic announcement on annexation in the next few weeks.

[CNN - Updated 18:35 GMT (02:35 HKT) June 2, 2020]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/midd ... index.html

["ERETZ YISRAEL (Hebrew, meaning "land of Israel") After the creation of the State of Israel in May 1948, this notion of a "Greater Israel" became the central theme of the political program of Israeli nationalist extremist movements. To them, Eretz Yisrael stretches from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean." (Wikipedia)]

[J T Melsom]

John
That is with respect extremely speculative. Whilst some believe they have enough evidence to condemn Avrukh, there is no evidence at all that he is motivated by the complexities of Middle eastern politics. Why not let Avrukh speak for himself.

[John McKenna]

OK, JT, I'm sure he can speak for himself. Doubt very much he'll do so here, however.

What I posted above is just my view of what his motivation(s) might be, based on what has been said in this thread.

On that score alone I ger the impression he is politically motivated - if not primarily by the "complexities of Middle eastern politics" then by the complexities of those of the United States of America. Those two complexities are inextricably linked, of course. Hard to see how most Israelis can avoid becoming involved in them in some shape or form.

[Tomis Chagall]

Yes, born in Kazakhstan (I looked it up)

That would be Central Asia then, not Eastern Europe.

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash..."

Someone who understands racism better than me should translate - "one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources... " for me because I do not read that as an outright denial.

According to Avrukh, CNN is not a credible source. As long as there are no credible sources (ultimately decided by Avrukh, apparently) provided, there is no systemic racism. A very simple, yet elegant way to refute everything. You just keep on regurgitating the phrase »not a credible source« until the other party gives up.

I’ve had a recent interaction very much in the same vein following the murder of Floyd by Chauvin (nomen est omen), it’s a very common means in debates. More often than not, however, they embarrass themselves when they don’t properly research sources that they pull out, which ultimately prove (or at least argue in the favor of) the opposite.

Avrukh is certainly a supporter of Trump, although times are strange when supporting a democratically elected President makes you an extremist.

Trump was elected by the Electoral College, not the general population, so that’s hardly a democratic decision by popular vote. 538 people roughly decide who becomes president and vice president of the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... al_College

Other than that, I’m with John McKenna’s opinion on this one.

[Mick Norris]

Yes, born in Kazakhstan (I looked it up)

That would be Central Asia then, not Eastern Europe

Kazakhstan in in UEFA so Europe for football purposes, but geograhically Wiki has it mostly in Central Asia with the western parts in Eastern Europe

Not sure that's relevant to the racism though

[Matt Mackenzie]

And he is I think an ethnic Russian from Kazakhstan, which again alters the calculus slightly.

[John McKenna]

Thanks go to Tomis C for trying to set the record straight, above.

Mick, Kazakhstan has been in Central Asia at least since modern geography came into being. Where anywhere is cannot be defined by soccer, or song, organizations for anything more than empire building.

Matt, you really should know better than to think you can call Avrukh an "ethnic Russian".

Those two examples of misappropriation only serve to muddy the already murky waters hereabouts.

[Tim Spanton]

Yes, born in Kazakhstan (I looked it up)

That would be Central Asia then, not Eastern Europe.

"I want to hear from you one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources than CNN trash..."

Someone who understands racism better than me should translate - "one example of systematic racism, but you should find better sources... " for me because I do not read that as an outright denial.

According to Avrukh, CNN is not a credible source. As long as there are no credible sources (ultimately decided by Avrukh, apparently) provided, there is no systemic racism. A very simple, yet elegant way to refute everything. You just keep on regurgitating the phrase »not a credible source« until the other party gives up.

I’ve had a recent interaction very much in the same vein following the murder of Floyd by Chauvin (nomen est omen), it’s a very common means in debates. More often than not, however, they embarrass themselves when they don’t properly research sources that they pull out, which ultimately prove (or at least argue in the favor of) the opposite.

Avrukh is certainly a supporter of Trump, although times are strange when supporting a democratically elected President makes you an extremist.

Trump was elected by the Electoral College, not the general population, so that’s hardly a democratic decision by popular vote. 538 people roughly decide who becomes president and vice president of the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... al_College

Other than that, I’m with John McKenna’s opinion on this one.

Trump won 46.1% of the vote - a larger share than most UK governments get

[Tomis Chagall]

Trump won 46.1% of the vote - a larger share than most UK governments get

Clinton got 48.2% of the vote … proving my statement above that there is no democratic election in the USA, where the majority of votes by the population counts. A country with a system where the minority vote wins.

[Tim Spanton]

Trump won 46.1% of the vote - a larger share than most UK governments get

Clinton got 48.2% of the vote … proving my statement above that there is no democratic election in the USA, where the majority of votes by the population counts. A country with a system where the minority vote wins.

Therefore, by your argument, Britain must be even less democratic since our governments rarely win 40% of the vote, never mind 50+%

[NickFaulks]

Clinton got 48.2% of the vote … proving my statement above that there is no democratic election in the USA, where the majority of votes by the population counts. A country with a system where the minority vote wins.

Both sides understood very well how the system works and campaigned accordingly. This is the bogus argument of a loser - if the goalposts had been shifted just an inch to the left, we would have won.

[J T Melsom]

I don't think pointing out that the United States is a country where the largest share of the vote doesn't win the election is a bogus argument at all. It contextualises Trump's triumph, just as it sets the scene for his demise.

[Paul Cooksey]

This thread seems like not chess to me in the most part. There are a lot of GMs in the world, so probably most political opinions are represented by some of them.

There is a BLM event on lichess starting tomorrow: https://lichess.org/blog/Xtz5iBAAACMASQ ... ves-matter

[J T Melsom]

Well amidst the digressions i did actually ask on page 1 what the chess community could do? But then posters challenged whether Avrukh was actually racist and we've ended up in not chess country, possibly because some posters don't care about racist behaviour, but I can't be certain of that. I would still like to know whether FIDE has mechanisms for dealing with racism inside/outside competition.