Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:35 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:05 pm
This thread may not be a Deaths & Obituaries thread, but it is even less a General Chat thread - it's an administrative topic about the forum itself.
Maybe put it in the "News and Support" board?

viewforum.php?f=8

Its not quite a technical (support) issue, more an etiqette issue on social conventions for this community. But it might fit there.

e.g. the issue of posting under real names got raised there, as did the issue of 'leaching':

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=894

(Apologies for semi-necro-resurrecting memories by pointing to a bad-tempered 11-year-old thread!)

Plus a 9-year-old thread on people wondering off topic (he says, completely intentionally):

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3185

Imagine a board for people to discuss old threads... linking to old gems that might deserve to be re-read. Hmm.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:49 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:35 pm
Maybe put it in the "News and Support" board?
I agree.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:57 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:41 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:35 pm
What's the point
Assuming the question is in the context of the `substantive point` I referred to, the original question was whether there is too wide a range of obituaries being shared on this forum.
Sad as it is I think I am really not sure we need to be searching and posting for every chess player who passes.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Neil Graham
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Neil Graham » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:08 pm

Simon has done a fine job with notifications of English players who have passed away.

At the end of the day, however, this is the English Chess Forum and death notices of foreign FMs, IMs and GMs have no place on the board unless they have a connection with this country. I note John's obituary notice for Kavalek who clearly fits this latter category; noting that Simon had never heard of him. When a non English (or British) player dies let anyone with personal knowledge of them post on here rather than a never ending list of unknowns.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:08 pm

Though even chess players with almost no UK connections may still be noteworthy if they are strong enough. So how strong, exactly?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:14 pm

I do actually find some of the notices of more obscure deaths interesting (learning about obscure [to me] parts of UK chess is about the same as learning about obscure parts of chess abroad). It is a difficult subject to handle. I would say all deaths of GMs are noteworthy, but is that being somewhat elitist? There are many who are not GMs who may be very well-known, and of course everyone's death is a personal grief to their family and friends. No man is an island and all that.

Tim Spanton
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:29 pm

But if there are 605million chess players in the world, some form of discrimination would seem advisable

Simon Rogers
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:02 pm

Hello all. I'm not sure where to start.
Firstly, me apologising to John McKenna for my outburst. I will send him a PM soon. I know he supported me a lot after my disagreement with a couple of members last June for which I will be eternally grateful.
I felt personally attacked when he criticised my posting of Miroslav Tosic which I took the wrong way.
I notice there has been a couple of posts implying that I deliberately search for deaths and post 'obscure'and 'unknown' people for some morbid reason.
That is not true, if that was the case I would have posted far more.
Some people call some of these GMs as obscure. People have their favourite chess players and favourite Openings and styles of play. We are all human and are all different.
Its true that I've not heard of the Czech GM Kavalek before to me he is obscure because I don't know him.
To me Miroslav Tosic is someone I know more due to his games that I have followed, his openings and style of play.
Its like I have favourite games that other people might not like.
For example, one of my favourite players is GM Vasillios Kotronias and one of my favourite games is one he played black against GM Peter Nielsen.
As Matt pointed out in a different thread about no one replying to him after reporting the death of Gennady Kuzmin.
I'm surprised no one has replied to the death that I reported of Miron Sher who coached Fabiano Caruana and played at Hastings in the mid 1990s.
No replies to the deaths of GMs Rantanen or Garcia, although I was pleased that Nigel Short tweeted a personal tribute to them. Nigel played Rantanen in Crete.
No replies for Sam Scurfield from Yorkshire who did so much for chess and junoirs. He also worked for Chess in Schools and Communities. A nice picture of him and Rachel Reeves.
Andrew Z has an excellent idea, suggesting splitting Deaths into two, one for domestic and the other for International.
I remember when I first joined the forum I reported the death of Geoff Robinson. To most people, yes he is obscure but to others in our league he was well known and to me he was a friend who also supported Junior Chess.
I also felt I was doing a service to the forum and also remembering the unsung heroes but now I'm not sure if I should bother.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:05 pm

Briefly, I do think having these notices posted here is a valuable service, but there will be (for want of a better word) 'local' people who are very active in chess in their area or region, but who have very little wider recognition. If there is no-one posting to or reading the forum from that area, then understandably there will be little reaction.

Also, before you started posting regular notices, Simon, there were many, many deaths that went unrecorded. Going back 10-15 years, there is a large amount out there that could be collated, but ultimately it should be those publishing the obituaries that make sure they are published in the right places. There is a place for a roving reporter, but maybe a round-up of wider news as well would be better received?

Ultimately, it is also down to people at a local level to post obituary notices, and to preserve the memories. What might be more useful is an effort to preserve some of the local records at a national level. Some of the obituaries on chess club or league websites (and indeed the other records on the websites) will only last as long as someone maintains the websites. An awful lot of it gets lost at some point (it was very fortunate that I believe most of the SCCU website maintained by Richard Haddrell was passed on in some fashion, to give one example). I am sure others have examples of chess websites and records that were lost.

This is one reason why regular (even if only annually) publication of newsletters can help build up records that may end up being preserved. And don't get me started on whether printed records survive longer than digital ones... (I flip both ways on that at various times). :?

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:16 pm

I don't want to discourage Simon if he is enjoying this project, at the very least it does no harm. But thinking about the number of players who have had an ECF grade and mortality rates per thousand for those demographics, I suppose very many more deaths than the rate reported.

Nick Grey
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:33 am

I don't want to discourage Simon but I want to discourage reporting cause of death.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:30 am

I hadn't though that cause of death might be a bit distressing on some occasions. I think journalistic etiquette is "after a short illness" and "after a long illness"

Simon Rogers
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Simon Rogers » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:43 am

Thank you for your support and advice. It is much appreciated. I'm still learning on the job as a journalist. I was in Malta reporting on the Charlie Storey 50th birthday celebrations and checking his troll prison.
I am off to Canada and the USA to look for any obscure International tournaments this year.
I will then come home for Chess Questions.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:39 pm

"I hadn't though that cause of death might be a bit distressing on some occasions. I think journalistic etiquette is "after a short illness" and "after a long illness""

Yes. In extreme cases, for example, I'm informed that unfortunately when suicide is reported, some people who read the reports are more likely to try it themselves. I don't think we would want that...

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John Clarke
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Re: Unwritten rules on epitaphs!?

Post by John Clarke » Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:02 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:39 pm
"I hadn't though that cause of death might be a bit distressing on some occasions. I think journalistic etiquette is "after a short illness" and "after a long illness""

Yes. In extreme cases, for example, I'm informed that unfortunately when suicide is reported, some people who read the reports are more likely to try it themselves. I don't think we would want that...
In some death notices, you'll see the word "unexpectedly". This might be "code" for something, but I wouldn't like to say what.
"The chess-board is the world ..... the player on the other side is hidden from us ..... he never overlooks a mistake, or makes the smallest allowance for ignorance."
(He doesn't let you resign and start again, either.)

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