World Youth Trial 5th-6th March 2011

[LozCooper]

what was the tiebreaker?

Under 18s was sum of progressive scores and U16 was the result of the individual game.

[Paul Sanders]

Let's imagine that the ECF suddenly received a gift of £30,000. What would be the most beneficial thing to do, send 10 players to Brazil, or send 40 players to big European Opens with coaching support. I can see little justification for spending the money on the World Youth Championships. In my opinion there is far too much emphasis on the World and European Championships in English Junior Chess

Or, perhaps give small bursaries to the boy and girl in each age group with the most improved FIDE rating each year...

You are right. It is very important for the ECF to signal strongly what it values and wishes to encourage.

[Roger de Coverly]

You are right. It is very important for the ECF to signal strongly what it values and wishes to encourage.

It might also be worth the ECF stepping back and asking what it's expecting from FIDE and ECU in the organisation of such events.

Points might include
value for money - not attempting to finance the entire event and make profits for the organisers out of over-charging for extra places, coaches, parents etc.
restricting additional places either by federation, rating or both.

[Mick Norris]

I would assume the ECF has nil influence with the current heads of the ECU and FIDE, so the chance of influencing their decisions will be low, although that shouldn't stop the ECF trying

Maybe now Nigel has played against many of the ECF juniors during his recent tour, he has a view how to improve junior chess in England

[Alex Holowczak]

I would assume the ECF has nil influence with the current heads of the ECU and FIDE, so the chance of influencing their decisions will be low, although that shouldn't stop the ECF trying

Its influence is slightly greater than nil; the ECF has one delegate to each - Nigel Short.

[Mick Norris]

Given Nigel opposed the current heads in their elections, his influence with them may well be nil, hope not

[Jim Wadsworth]

In my opinion there is far too much emphasis on the World and European Championships in English Junior Chess

Tend to agree. But those events are always going to attract attention from both players and their parents given the prestigious nature of representing one's country at events which are, rightly or wrongly, regarded both here and elsewhere as two of the larger pinnacles in junior chess.

[Jim Wadsworth]

The idea that U12s need to play FIDE rated chess for developmental purposes is ludicrous, IMO, so to base a qualifying standard on rating at that age is unfair. Playing in Weekend Opens and/or higher age group tournaments should be just as good for improvement purposes. The key to improvement is simply to play stronger players.

This seems to be a cultural difference more than a developmental one. I have now taken Isaac to enough tournaments in other countries to expect to see children from the age of about 8 and up happily playing in FIDE rated 9 rounders, with no disapproval at all from either the organisers, other players, or onlookers.

My own view is that practice at FIDE format internationals has been very helpful for Isaac, and has also provided structured time for preparation, which is an entirely different skill to learn.

Don't have Paul / Isaac's experience of non-UK events, but completely agree that playing in FIDE rated events such as e2e4, London chess classic, British Major open has helped my son Matthew (currently 10 years old) with his development.

And when you look at players from other countries in the U12 age groups (and older, obviously) at world & european level, pretty much all of the top players have ratings (in some cases quite high ratings...). Quite a few of the U10s and even some U8s have ratings too.

So I don't understand the objection to U12s playing rated chess if it helps them to improve.

[David Shepherd]

I think all Richard was saying is that for the younger age group they could gain good experience from playing in weekend tournaments and that it was not essential for them to play in FIDE events, he was not saying it was bad for them to do so.

Another point may also be there are more FIDE rated tournaments in the South than the North (but I could be wrong).

[Matthew Turner]

In my opinion there is far too much emphasis on the World and European Championships in English Junior Chess

Tend to agree. But those events are always going to attract attention from both players and their parents given the prestigious nature of representing one's country at events which are, rightly or wrongly, regarded both here and elsewhere as two of the larger pinnacles in junior chess.

I am not sure that this has to be true. Lets see what happens in Brazil. If England manages to send 10 players to Brazil I bet England will have more representatives than Germany, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland and Italy combined. If this happens I am sure those countries will still manage to produce good players. I think the Junior Director ought to take a lead and say Brazil is a simply not a good use of resources, I expect that is what most of our European counterparts will do.

[Richard Bates]

I think all Richard was saying is that for the younger age group they could gain good experience from playing in weekend tournaments and that it was not essential for them to play in FIDE events, he was not saying it was bad for them to do so.

Another point may also be there are more FIDE rated tournaments in the South than the North (but I could be wrong).

Yes that was my point (albeit i think with hindsight perhaps made a little over forcibly ). I was going to make the North/South point as well - the fact that some juniors lack "recognition" should not be a factor to be held against them, any selection process should make some effort to look past factors such as this. The basic point is that the fundamental route to improvement is playing lots, at reasonable time limits that allow one to confront and solve challenges at the board, and against stronger players. Whether they are FIDE-rated is a minor point.

Agree with Matthew though about the "over-concentration" on World/European Champs. That's not to say they can't be useful for developing, (hell i went to 7 of them so i hope it did some good!) although arguably for reasons which are not to do with the 9-11 games that are actually played. If i had to identify the most valuable things i got out of them it would be an opening repertoire developed in advance of my first tournament (U12) that I still rely on to some extent today, and probably that it prompted my parents to invest in some reasonably regular individual coaching. And inevitably you gain the confidence of being part of an "elite" at the top of an age-group.