English Chess Forum

We are not sure if this has been posted in the correct section, but it does seem to tie in with some of the threads. We have written a letter to the ECF, a copy of which we are publishing here and we ask that if there are any other parents/ECF members out there who agree with the sentiments expressed and would like a change in the policy, to please write an e-mail to the ECF also. (see below for the letter)

TIME FOR A CHANGE?

Dear Sirs,

We are writing as concerned parents about the current policy which only allows one child per age group to be sent to International competitions to represent England. We would like this policy changed as soon as possible.

We would like that any child who wishes to go and whose parents are willing to pay, to be allowed to go. This would then allow parents like ourselves who are not wealthy, to plan and save up for those competitions which would suit us and our child. There are many parents like ourselves on the junior circuit.

The current policy is prohibitive, elitist and strangling the life out of junior chess in this country.

The benefits to changing the policy for those who are currently already selected are also numerous as these children and their coaches can then focus on the International competitions rather than constantly playing each other in sub-standard, ridiculous time-controlled (ie not the same as the International competitions), little tournaments. It would also release some of the pressure on them at these International tournaments and make it more of a 'team' event.

We are parents of a child who is never selected, but keen to attend. He has won three consecutive British Junior Titles as well as many other National competitions including the London Juniors.

He is a child who would benefit from attending one of these International junior tournaments. In an ideal world we would like for him to attend the World's when it is in Europe.

He might not win the International competitions (or he might), but at least he would gain valuable experience and have fun. Is that after all, what chess is all about at a junior level?

We have watched as this topic is debated in the ECF forums. We have watched as some of the best English junior players (including our son) have become disillusioned, disheartened and left junior chess - Peter Andreev (who is now playing for Russia), Peter Williams to name just two others - how sad is that? Surely you guys at the top should do something about your juniors and help them?

We (as parents) would like some action now.

Please change this rule before it is too late for Rohan (and other juniors) to play in junior International competitions. Please give him (and many other children like him) a chance.

Yours faithfully,

Andrew and Krishna Shiatis

Open letter given its own topic and moved to Junior Chess.

Krishna Shiatis wrote:We would like that any child who wishes to go and whose parents are willing to pay, to be allowed to go.

I would have thought a minimum standard is needed as well. There are after all cheaper tournaments in which to come last.

Krishna Shiatis wrote: TIME FOR A CHANGE?

Hear hear.

Is there an official ECF selection policy on juniors?

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?page_id=353 shows policy

Roger de Coverly wrote: I would have thought a minimum standard is needed as well. There are after all cheaper tournaments in which to come last.

I agree, but would you not agree that when players for example win repeated British Titles they are of that standard. I think of about the 22ish? English British junior title holders 4 are at the world championships representing England. I think you played Mathew the other day as an example of a player who finished 2nd in the trial. Do you have any doubt that he was at least strong enough to represent us in the U10's. Appologies for naming names as I don't wish to bring individuals in to the arguement as it is the general point that is being made rather than should x or y go.

edit Sorry my mistake it was Adam (but he finished 2nd in the U14's! so same point)

Roger de Coverly wrote:

Krishna Shiatis wrote:We would like that any child who wishes to go and whose parents are willing to pay, to be allowed to go.

I would have thought a minimum standard is needed as well. There are after all cheaper tournaments in which to come last.

No. What is this obsession with winning some of you seem to have? We are dealing with children here. Not robots. So what if they come last?

Success is something which follows naturally from training, learning, experience, motivation and a child having fun.

Somewhere along the line, English Chess has forgotton this.

They expect the children to turn up to these international competitions and magically win. This is not how it works. Children need to experience and actually practice being there. It is what they bring back to their home country, that then improves the chess at grass roots. It is the competition driven from this, which then brings up the standards.

On a smaller scale one can see this happening in schools where there are a couple of children who play externally at county level. These children may lose at this higher level, but when they return to play at their own school, the standard of the entire school team usually improves.

Children learn much more from their losses than their wins. If a child and their parents are enthusiastic and wish to play, why should they be stopped? Obviously it is the job of the Junior Chess Director to explain the level of difficulty and then up to the parents to make the final decision.

After all, we trust parents to make just such decisions when entering their children in adult competitions in the UK. Very few parents throw their children into open sections with no training. If they do it once and it does not work out, they tend not to do it again.

Most parents are not numpties. They will judge whether or not their child can handle the competition. It is after all, they who are footing the bill not the ECF. If they go once and then decide the competition is not for them next year so what?Their child will have learned much from the experience no matter what.

Our son participates in tournaments which he wins outright and others where he barely picks up any points. Not a single game or tournament, win or loss is considered to be a waste of time. He does not like to lose, but lose he does.

He usually does badly at first each time he plays at a higher level. However, the next time he comes back stronger for the experience and fights even harder.

We should not be afraid for our children to lose, but embrace that they might learn and improve.

The eventual result of allowing lots of children to go will be that they will return to the UK stronger for the experience, smarter and better at chess. This will stir up enthusiasm in schools and chess clubs as children will have interesting choices and more tournaments to attend. The next year, if they return having trained more, they will be better equipped to deal with the competition. Hopefully, they will be stronger and more successful. If this continues, then hopefully by the time they are 18 they will be very strong chess players no matter what.

When they return, having won or lost, it is our duty as adults not to bang on about their losses and nit pick their mistakes, but to help them to improve and to encourage them to continue their journey in chess, without any barriers.

There's a difference between not picking up many points and being destroyed game after game. It's avoidance of the latter that a minimum standard is required for, not the former.

I assume the ECF funds the coaches going with the players. Obviously these coaches can only coach so many people.

There may also be a problem where parents want to send their children without accompanying them. Again, there has to be a set limit on the number of people that each coach/ accompanying adult can be responsibile for the welfare of.

I don't necessarily think that there should be a set limit on the number of juniors wanting to play in international junior events, but a set limit of juniors whom the ECF can provide coaching resources for and ensure the welfare of at these events. If a junior wishes to play who doesn't come within this limit, then their parents should have full responsibility for them whilst playing at the event.

Rob Thompson wrote:There's a difference between not picking up many points and being destroyed game after game. It's avoidance of the latter that a minimum standard is required for, not the former.

Like I said Rob, that is a decision which parents and children are more than equipped to make. As with all other tournaments in the UK, we allow the parents to make just such decisions all the time.

Many children 'are destroyed' time after time in all their games at county level or in school competitions. Does that mean that they should not be allowed to play chess there? Perhaps you should start policing all junior competitions for the losers and stop them all playing?

During his first year of playing chess, our son lost every single game he played at club level. I do not recall him winning even once. He was systematically destroyed at the board. He was not happy, but boy did he learn. He became very good at fighting at the chess board, very quickly.

That is how champions are made.

He did not walk away and give up. That experience is something which has stood him in good stead ever since. He came back each and every time, stronger for it.

Children who play chess, do lose. It happens. Get over it. They do.

Like I said, we should not be scared of our children losing, but embrace that they are learning and experiencing. As long as we do not critisise them afterwards, they are fine.

benedgell wrote:I assume the ECF funds the coaches going with the players. Obviously these coaches can only coach so many people.

There may also be a problem where parents want to send their children without accompanying them. Again, there has to be a set limit on the number of people that each coach/ accompanying adult can be responsibile for the welfare of.

I don't necessarily think that there should be a set limit on the number of juniors wanting to play in international junior events, but a set limit of juniors whom the ECF can provide coaching resources for and ensure the welfare of at these events. If a junior wishes to play who doesn't come within this limit, then their parents should have full responsibility for them whilst playing at the event.

We (as parents) would not expect ECF to fund our coaches. We are not asking for coaching assistance. Modern technology means we can easily e-mail/phone our own coaches ourselves should the need arise.

We (as parents) would not expect the ECF to supervise our children. We would do that ourselves.

There is no cost involved in our proposal to the ECF. All we ask is they allow us to go. Is that too much to ask? It does not cost the ECF anything, not a penny, nada, zip.

I'm not convinced parents are "more than equipped" to make that choice. I'm aware of quite a few examples, even from my own age group alone, where the parents pushed too hard, too fast, into competitions too strong for their children. Most of these have since given up, or, at best, massively reduced their activity.

Whilst your child appears to have been fine with it, he is very unusual in that he could play for a year losing every single game and not get fed up and give the game up. It's a very individual thing, and the fact that your child coped well with losing a lot doesn't mean that every (or even most) children would. I know that i would have been set back if i'd lost everything in my first year, and i probably wouldn't be playing now if i'd been put into tournaments too early

David Shepherd wrote:I agree, but would you not agree that when players for example win repeated British Titles they are of that standard.

I don't really disagree, but if you look at the results of players in the World and European youth events, you see that there's an implied minimum standard below which you are just cannon fodder. In the under 18s (open) I suppose it's about 2200, the under 16s perhaps 2000 and the under 14s 1800. Remember that the top seeds even in the under 14s are likely to be 2400 plus. That's way above the standard you'd expect in, for example, the Major Open.

What's the point? - I think it is that you shouldn't play representing ENG as part of a team unless you are up to standard. International junior standards are at a level that those taking part should be able to score points in the Open sections of domestic events.

There are lots of open tournaments where players can gain international experience.

I agree with the premise that the number of places available in these junior events should be less limited, but there still needs to be a qualification standard either by absolute rating or grade or by relative ranking - like performance in the national championships. The caveat on performance in national championships is that by international standards, the standards of British juniors are not the world-class they once were.

Rob Thompson wrote:I'm not convinced parents are "more than equipped" to make that choice. I'm aware of quite a few examples, even from my own age group alone, where the parents pushed too hard, too fast, into competitions too strong for their children. Most of these have since given up, or, at best, massively reduced their activity.

Whilst your child appears to have been fine with it, he is very unusual in that he could play for a year losing every single game and not get fed up and give the game up. It's a very individual thing, and the fact that your child coped well with losing a lot doesn't mean that every (or even most) children would. I know that i would have been set back if i'd lost everything in my first year, and i probably wouldn't be playing now if i'd been put into tournaments too early

Rob, nobody is arguing that some parents are too pushy. These parents will exist no matter what.

The point is that most parents are equipped to make decisions regarding their children and we let them get on with it all the time. Admittedly, not all children would be as our son is. Every child is an individual and what is right for Rohan is not going to be right for others. We are not saying that at all children should follow Rohan's path.

We are saying that you let the parents decide. They know their children best and are well equipped to make the necessary decisions.

I know that you will then say

'Oh no they're not! I know Jo Blogs and he pushed his child too far and he has given up now. So did Dippy Smith and Donny Donuts'

Well I've got news for you, whether or not we let our children go to the International competitions, these parents will still exist and yes, their children will give up. Not because we let them enter international competitions, but because the parents are too pushy. We can not change that.

What we can change though, is to let those who want to play, play.
What we can change, is to let those who are keen, to get on with it.

Is that too much to ask?