Online LJCC

National developments, strategies and ideas.
Wadih Khoury
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Online LJCC

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:42 am

Seems qualifiers start this week end for an online version of the LJCC.

While it's great to keep events alive, I am not sure I'll register my son. Mainly due to the very light anti cheating measures: lichess (not sure if there is a post game Regan analysis).

While any game (even against a stockfish fueled opponent) is good experience, I think the constant suspicion is draining on both child and parent, and the feeling of unfairness when suspected or perceived cheats are not caught.
I talked to a few other parents (some whose child was on the victim end of a proven cheat) who are also now reluctant to participate in online events unless anti cheating measures are dialled up.
If UKCC is an indicator, LJCC will face 5% or more cheat. This is way too high to enjoy an event.

Any other parents views on this?

Alan Kennedy
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Alan Kennedy » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:02 am

It is much better to play even if 5% cheat than not - still worth it for the other 95% of games. i will be entering my grandson.

Wadih Khoury
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:11 am

Alan Kennedy wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:02 am
It is much better to play even if 5% cheat than not - still worth it for the other 95% of games. i will be entering my grandson.
That's a 26% chance of meeting at least one cheater.
And I would assume that the more you win, the likelier you'll face one.

John McKenna
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by John McKenna » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:01 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:42 am
Seems qualifiers start this week end for an online version of the LJCC.

While it's great to keep events alive, I am not sure I'll register my son. Mainly due to the very light anti cheating measures: lichess (not sure if there is a post game Regan analysis)...

If UKCC is an indicator, LJCC will face 5% or more cheat. This is way too high to enjoy an event...
Details of the 2020 Online London Junior Chess Championships can be seen via -

https://www.ljcc.co.uk/2020_Events.html

From which -

"LJCC Lite Online Fair Play Policy

These are the current guideline and rules for fair play in LJCC Lite Online including a summary of anticheating arrangements. The rules are being reviewed on an ongoing basis and will be updated as appropriate based on experience from LJCC Lite and other events...

4. A message from the Chairman on the subject of fair play:

There is no perfect system to detect cheating. The Lichess detection software is impressive and offers excellent protection for all players. We understand how frustrating it can be if the software fails to spot cheating or detects cheating incorrectly but we believe this happens extremely rarely. We hope very, very few players are adversely affected. We rely on the honesty and integrity of all players (and their parents) to play this tournament in a spirit of sportsmanship and good humour..

We look forward to the return to over-the-board chess as soon as possible."

Are the proposed LJCC anti-cheating measures any different to the ones used in 4NCL Online events, I wonder.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Ian Thompson
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:37 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:01 pm
Are the proposed LJCC anti-cheating measures any different to the ones used in 4NCL Online events, I wonder.
Yes. The 4NCL has an appeals process it manages, so it is possible to continue playing in 4NCL events after a platform ban if the 4NCL appeal is successful. The LJCC has no appeals process of its own, so the only way you can continue is if the platform rescinds the ban.

Wadih Khoury
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:59 pm

The 4NCL also has the Regan analysis in top of the Lichess one.

Angus French
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Angus French » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:07 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:37 pm
The 4NCL has an appeals process it manages, so it is possible to continue playing in 4NCL events after a platform ban if the 4NCL appeal is successful.
I didn't know that. How is it possible to continue playing if the platform ban is extant?

Wadih Khoury
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:46 pm

Angus French wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:07 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:37 pm
The 4NCL has an appeals process it manages, so it is possible to continue playing in 4NCL events after a platform ban if the 4NCL appeal is successful.
I didn't know that. How is it possible to continue playing if the platform ban is extant?
New account.

Angus French
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Angus French » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:16 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:46 pm
Angus French wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:07 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:37 pm
The 4NCL has an appeals process it manages, so it is possible to continue playing in 4NCL events after a platform ban if the 4NCL appeal is successful.
I didn't know that. How is it possible to continue playing if the platform ban is extant?
New account.
Is it known whether this has occurred in practice? Is the platform provider (lichess) OK with it?

Matthew Turner
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Matthew Turner » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Angus,

The UK Chess Challenge has an appeals procedure too

Answering your question in a very roundabout way.

1. Providers have much more information than appeals panels
2. If there are appeals then there will be successful appeals
3. A successful appeal doesn't necessarily mean the provider got it wrong

So the providers don't need to feel 'threatened' by some successful appeals and it appears at the moment UK Chess organisations are maintaining good relations with the providers.

Nick Grey
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:23 pm

Sitting at the screen waiting for the next round is cruel. Why not allow blitz between rounds. Anti-cheating costs more. Make it fun. If I was a young person I would want to go outside in my local London area this weekend.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:07 am

Angus French wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Wadih Khoury wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:46 pm
Angus French wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:07 pm

I didn't know that. How is it possible to continue playing if the platform ban is extant?
New account.
Is it known whether this has occurred in practice? Is the platform provider (lichess) OK with it?
First answer, yes. Second answer, presumably acquiescent at worst.

Angus French
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Angus French » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:20 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:52 pm
Angus,

The UK Chess Challenge has an appeals procedure too

Answering your question in a very roundabout way.

1. Providers have much more information than appeals panels
2. If there are appeals then there will be successful appeals
3. A successful appeal doesn't necessarily mean the provider got it wrong

So the providers don't need to feel 'threatened' by some successful appeals and it appears at the moment UK Chess organisations are maintaining good relations with the providers.
Thanks for the explanation, Matt. If that's the way things proceed then it all seems a bit contorted to me!

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Online LJCC

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:47 am

Angus French wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:20 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:52 pm
Angus,

The UK Chess Challenge has an appeals procedure too

Answering your question in a very roundabout way.

1. Providers have much more information than appeals panels
2. If there are appeals then there will be successful appeals
3. A successful appeal doesn't necessarily mean the provider got it wrong

So the providers don't need to feel 'threatened' by some successful appeals and it appears at the moment UK Chess organisations are maintaining good relations with the providers.
Thanks for the explanation, Matt. If that's the way things proceed then it all seems a bit contorted to me!
Angus,
If you mean my answer is contorted then apologies, if you mean the process is contorted, then I am not sure that is correct. In essence it is similar to an OTB appeals process (at say a World or European Junior Championships)
We could say about the OTB process

1. Appeals panels are made up of players who generally know less about the rules than arbiters
2. If there are appeals there will be successful appeals
3. A successful appeal doesn't necessarily mean the arbiters got it wrong

Major tournaments can continue perfectly happily even if there is a successful appeal.

Of course it is perfectly sensible to argue that the whole appeals process isn't beneficial, but it is pretty well established concept in high level chess.

Angus French
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Re: Online LJCC

Post by Angus French » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:21 pm

Ah, I meant the process as described. It seems that you have two organisations potentially coming to different judgments about the same thing albeit with possibly different (though overlapping) sets of evidence. Neither organisation helps the other but both apparently recognise each other's decision.

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