World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

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NickFaulks
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:29 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:06 pm
Football goes to great lengths to avoid pairings that will cause this sort of incident.
That's true in that, as in sport generally, Israel is rather curiously defined as being in Europe rather than Asia. Individual globally based events are more difficult to fix.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:34 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:29 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:06 pm
Football goes to great lengths to avoid pairings that will cause this sort of incident.
That's true in that, as in sport generally, Israel is rather curiously defined as being in Europe rather than Asia. Individual globally based events are more difficult to fix.
There are rather more restrictions than that; here's one from the Euro 2020 qualifiers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2020_qualifying wrote: Prohibited clashes: For political reasons, matches between following pairs of teams are considered prohibited clashes, unable to be drawn into the same group: Gibraltar / Spain, Kosovo / Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo / Serbia. (Armenia / Azerbaijan and Russia / Ukraine were also identified as prohibited clashes, but the teams in these pairs were in the same pots for the draw.)

NickFaulks
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:02 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:34 pm
For political reasons, matches between following pairs of teams are considered prohibited clashes, unable to be drawn into the same group: Gibraltar / Spain, Kosovo / Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo / Serbia. (Armenia / Azerbaijan and Russia / Ukraine were also identified as prohibited clashes, but the teams in these pairs were in the same pots for the draw.)
Thanks, that is interesting. I'm sure nobody really cares about Spain refusing to play against Gibraltar, but does the ECU allow players from Kosovo to refuse to play against Serbs or Bosnians? I know I could check, but I suspect they don't.
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Ian Thompson
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:53 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:48 pm
In Round 4 it looks like we have an Iranian player failing to turn up to play an Israeli (Zlatin-Gholami, board 22).
Gholami is now shown as "not paired" for the rest of the event.
Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:45 pm
Sadly Holden might get the bye as he went down to FM Sargsyan in 15 moves.
We're now back to an even number of players, so no byes. He wouldn't have got it in Round 5 anyway because it would have been given to the one player still on 0/4.

Mick Norris
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:37 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:02 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:34 pm
For political reasons, matches between following pairs of teams are considered prohibited clashes, unable to be drawn into the same group: Gibraltar / Spain, Kosovo / Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo / Serbia. (Armenia / Azerbaijan and Russia / Ukraine were also identified as prohibited clashes, but the teams in these pairs were in the same pots for the draw.)
Thanks, that is interesting. I'm sure nobody really cares about Spain refusing to play against Gibraltar, but does the ECU allow players from Kosovo to refuse to play against Serbs or Bosnians? I know I could check, but I suspect they don't.
We never had any problems with the Kosovo players at the Manchester Rapidplays, and indeed it was mainly thanks to them that we got the City of Manchester (now Etihad) stadium for free; we've quite a mix of nationalities and races in Manchester (as I'm sure is the case in many other chess areas) and I've not heard of any problems
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Stewart Reuben
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Stewart Reuben » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:47 pm

Nick Faulks>I'm sure nobody really cares about Spain refusing to play against Gibraltar,<

Gibraltarians play as ENG, as do IOM. People would have to be very knowledgeable to know they were playing against somebody from Gib.
Stephen Whatley? Is he not a student in England?

Many Spanish players compete in the Gibraltar Congress.

Early in the thread it was suggested that Israelis should be barred because they refuse to play against Arabs or Iranians. But they are perfectly willing to play against such opponents. It is the Arabs refusing to play them. You may also remember when Indians were instructed not to play against Israelis. That led to a mess in Switzerland.

Richard Bates
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:05 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:47 pm

Early in the thread it was suggested that Israelis should be barred because they refuse to play against Arabs or Iranians.
Where?

Joseph Conlon
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 pm

It is the Arabs refusing to play them.
Iranians are not Arabs. In any case, is it the individual players who are refusing to play? If a player has no realistic practical choice on a policy imposed on them by their own government, it seems unreasonable to sanction an individual beyond a default in the individual game.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:15 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 pm
If a player has no realistic practical choice on a policy imposed on them by their own government, it seems unreasonable to sanction an individual beyond a default in the individual game.
FIDE seem now to be trying to take a much harder line, perhaps in the hope it will put pressure on governments that impose such conditions on players taking part in foreign events.

For many years British arbiters ducked the issue by using "no play" flags in the pairing algorithms.

Stewart Reuben
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:19 pm

Richard. I seem to have mixed two different threads which, from time to time, refer to the same problem.

John McMorrow
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by John McMorrow » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:17 am

Another Iranian vs Israeli pairing today. Gholami was kicked out of the tournament for refusing to play the same opponent. There was talk of a 5-year ban but unclear if this is from junior fide-run events or all fide-run events - the ban was supposed delivered by Arkady himself via email. Hearing this from players who spoke to Gholami before he left for his next event...

Leonard Barden
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Leonard Barden » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:19 pm

Top seeded M Amin Tabatabaei, rated 2642 and Iran's No3 after Firouzja and Maghsoodloo, was down to play Or Bronstein of Israel in the just started sixth round of the World Junior. As was predictable the live transmission is showing 0-1 with no moves played in that game.

If the previous post is true and Arkady Dvorkovich on behalf of Fide is imposing summary 5-year-bans on the players concerned, today ratches it up considerably. Tabatabaei is a key member of Iran's successful Olympiad team.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:10 pm

The Brit's are having positive results. Ravi Haria is equal 3rd going into round 7 (of 11). And Holden Davis is battling well, picking up draws against a CM and two FM's so far. His round 6 game was a excellent attacking Classical Dutch where he just missed the win.

NickFaulks
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:50 pm

Leonard Barden wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:19 pm
Tabatabaei is a key member of Iran's successful Olympiad team.
You probably shouldn't bet on Iran even being in the Olympiad unless they promise to play any team they are drawn against, which of course they will not do.

It is widely assumed that the Iranian government cares about being excluded from the sporting world, but they really don't. In judo, they have walked away from a reigning world champion with no apparent regrets.
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Tim Harding
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Re: World Junior Under 20 Chess Championship

Post by Tim Harding » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:08 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:53 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:48 pm
In Round 4 it looks like we have an Iranian player failing to turn up to play an Israeli (Zlatin-Gholami, board 22).
Gholami is now shown as "not paired" for the rest of the event.
As explained in another thread about FIDE boycotts, Gholami presented a medical certificate to avoid playing the Israeli and the organisers decided not to pair him after that - or maybe he was going home anyway.

In the more recent case, Tabatabaei is continuing in the tournament, so apparently it's not a case of a FIDE ban.
Tim Harding
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