2010 BUCA Individual Championship (November 12-14)

[Alex Holowczak]

The British Universities’ Chess Association will run an Individual Championship between 12-14 November 2010. It will be held at the Herons’ Reach Hotel in Blackpool, with accommodation at discount rates available at the venue. Prizes include qualification to the British Championship, qualification for a British team attending the World Student Games in Shenzhen, China, and discounted entry into other congresses. There is also a mini-team competition, for which the winner will get free entry into the BUCA Team Championship in Oxford in February 2011.

The entry form can be downloaded here: http://www.buca.org.uk

If you have any questions, contact Alex Holowczak at: [email protected]

[Richard Bates]

Just as a matter of interest, does the British Championship qualification place on offer in this event depend on the somewhat dubious claim that it is a FIDE rated "Open", or is that incidental?

[Sean Hewitt]

Just as a matter of interest, does the British Championship qualification place on offer in this event depend on the somewhat dubious claim that it is a FIDE rated "Open", or is that incidental?

Don't get me started on that!

[Alex Holowczak]

Just as a matter of interest, does the British Championship qualification place on offer in this event depend on the somewhat dubious claim that it is a FIDE rated "Open", or is that incidental?

My argument was that it's just as Open as the British Seniors Championship is, which also offers a place.

I asked whether this could be a qualifier for the British as a FIDE-rated Open, and sent the full details of the event to all who were concerned. The reply I got back was that it could be a qualifier.

Jack Rudd pointed out that it is technically Open; anyone can go to Open University and register for a course.

[Michael Jones]

Jack Rudd pointed out that it is technically Open; anyone can go to Open University and register for a course.

Which is pretty much what some people have done to get on University Challenge...

[Richard Bates]

Just as a matter of interest, does the British Championship qualification place on offer in this event depend on the somewhat dubious claim that it is a FIDE rated "Open", or is that incidental?

My argument was that it's just as Open as the British Seniors Championship is, which also offers a place.

I asked whether this could be a qualifier for the British as a FIDE-rated Open, and sent the full details of the event to all who were concerned. The reply I got back was that it could be a qualifier.

Jack Rudd pointed out that it is technically Open; anyone can go to Open University and register for a course.

Ha! That's what I believe the word sophistry was invented for.

So if somebody organises an "Open" internal club tournament (open "only to club members"), and FIDE rates it, "all who were concerned" would similarly declare it eligible for a qualifying place?

Not sure what the relevance of the British Senior Championship is. The justification for that tournament getting a qualifying place may be mystifying, but its certainly not based upon a claim that it is an Open, FIDE-rated or otherwise.

[Alex Holowczak]

So if somebody organises an "Open" internal club tournament (open "only to club members"), and FIDE rates it, "all who were concerned" would similarly declare it eligible for a qualifying place?

Not sure what the relevance of the British Senior Championship is. The justification for that tournament getting a qualifying place may be mystifying, but its certainly not based upon a claim that it is an Open, FIDE-rated or otherwise.

The point is that it's open to all who can qualify (or at least, will be once Constitutional changes are done to reflect this fact).

The point was based on the fact that the British Senior Championship is closed to those who are 60 or over. Some would argue that this is restricted to people of a certain age group too. If that argument is one that comes my way, then that is the rebuttal.

In any case, I asked if it could be a British Championship qualifier, and the Board/Congress Managers said it could be. So perhaps take it up with them? They were perfectly entitled to say no.

[Richard Bates]

The point is that it's open to all who can qualify (or at least, will be once Constitutional changes are done to reflect this fact).

That is not an Open, by any normal definition.

The point was based on the fact that the British Senior Championship is closed to those who are 60 or over. Some would argue that this is restricted to people of a certain age group too. If that argument is one that comes my way, then that is the rebuttal.

This is a red-herring, there is no requirement for British Championship qualifiers to be Opens. The British Senior Championship is a qualifier because it is specifically stated to be so in the qualifying regulations. Similarly, for example the British U18 and U21 championships. It has absolutely no bearing on your tournament which relies on a different criteria "any British Isles FIDE-rated Open".

In any case, I asked if it could be a British Championship qualifier, and the Board/Congress Managers said it could be. So perhaps take it up with them? They were perfectly entitled to say no

Fair point. Tends to reinforce my impression that the powers that be can't decide whether qualifying places should be harder to achieve, easier to achieve, a mixture, or mainly a means of influencing tournament conditions in this country.

[Alex Holowczak]

The point is that it's open to all who can qualify (or at least, will be once Constitutional changes are done to reflect this fact).

That is not an Open, by any normal definition.

It doesn't have to be an Open to be a British Championship qualifier. The tournament is as Open as it needs to be. There's a Congress in Leek in a fortnight that is restricted to players under 2420 (or something like that). That's a qualifier because everyone over 2350 qualifies by rating.

[Richard Bates]

The point is that it's open to all who can qualify (or at least, will be once Constitutional changes are done to reflect this fact).

That is not an Open, by any normal definition.

It doesn't have to be an Open to be a British Championship qualifier. The tournament is as Open as it needs to be. There's a Congress in Leek in a fortnight that is restricted to players under 2420 (or something like that). That's a qualifier because everyone over 2350 qualifies by rating.

Oh i see, I've found that one. Amusingly the entry form describes itself as a FIDE-rated tournament open to those graded under 220. I wonder if i could have played if i wasn't already otherwise occupied?

It appears, therefore, that the British Championship qualifying criteria are completely misleading, with "FIDE rated Open" actually meaning "FIDE rated tournament that calls itself an Open"!

Although I would still say that there is still a fundamental difference between a tournament which is "Open" to all players not pre-qualified for the British Championship and a tournament which by definition and design excludes the vast majority of those same players (sophistry notwithstanding).

[Alex Holowczak]

It appears, therefore, that the British Championship qualifying criteria are completely misleading, with "FIDE rated Open" actually meaning "FIDE rated tournament that calls itself an Open"!

I thought they were making an error at first; then I realised that one of the people involved with it is Dave Welch. Given he's one of the Congress Managers for the British Championship, he would have noticed it if it were a mistake long before now.

I don't think it's anything that "calls itself an Open"; it just needs to not exclude someone who hasn't already qualified. I accept that BUCA's tournament does just this without some creative thinking; I made this point perfectly clear when I asked if it could be a qualifier. I expect that the situation will be reviewed though, so I will keep checking each year, particularly if the Congress Manager were to change.

[Richard Bates]

It appears, therefore, that the British Championship qualifying criteria are completely misleading, with "FIDE rated Open" actually meaning "FIDE rated tournament that calls itself an Open"!

I thought they were making an error at first; then I realised that one of the people involved with it is Dave Welch. Given he's one of the Congress Managers for the British Championship, he would have noticed it if it were a mistake long before now.

I don't think it's anything that "calls itself an Open"; it just needs to not exclude someone who hasn't already qualified. I accept that BUCA's tournament does just this without some creative thinking; I made this point perfectly clear when I asked if it could be a qualifier. I expect that the situation will be reviewed though, so I will keep checking each year, particularly if the Congress Manager were to change.

Well having initiated the debate, and bumped your tournament to the top of the page, I think i'll retire and wait to see if Sean is tempted further to "get started"

Oh, and try and make sure a genuine British player picks up your qualifying place, won't you? Or at least persuade any Polish qualifiers not to be quite so tactless as to turn up wearing "Polska" tracksuits next year...

[Sean Hewitt]

Well having initiated the debate, and bumped your tournament to the top of the page, I think i'll retire and wait to see if Sean is tempted further to "get started"

In a nutshell, when I saw the BUCA event had a British Championship Qualifying place despite it being a closed event (albeit not closed due to strength), I asked whether our e2e4 Young Masters event might similarly get a place. I had of course previously assumed that, like the BUCA event, it was not eligible as it was a closed event (due to age) even though it was open to all playing strengths. I got told that no, it couldn't have a qualifying place.

When I asked why I was told that I needed to "get the event establised without a qualifier, then apply when you've got a track record of entries, perhaps next year."

So I asked "could you please explain why the BUCA Championships, which is also a new closed event, does have a British Championship Qualifying place."

The rather remarkable response was "In giving a BCQ to a championhsip event like BUCA we are indeed taking a risk but is has succeeded"

I asked "How can the BUCA 'risk' be deemed to have succeeded when the event hasn't even taken place yet?" As usual with the ECF when it is asked a difficult question, even with the new blood on board, there was no reply.

I haven't pursued the matter further because as I've said before I don't believe the BCQ place adds any value to an event we run so it's not worth further effort. I don't begrudge BUCA it's BCQ place ; good luck to them ; but it does grate that it's one rule for one and one rule for another.

[Alex Holowczak]

We have had to cancel this event, due to there not being enough entries, and the ones we did have weren't staying at the hotel!

Disappointing, but at least it's known not to repeat it...

[David Sedgwick]

We have had to cancel this event, due to there not being enough entries

Alex, I'm sorry to hear that, and I wish you better luck with future ventures.

It does make Sean's account of his dealings with the ECF sound somewhat ironic, although I think it's fair to say that the entry for the Uxbridge Young Masters has also proved to be a little disappointing.

Not every new venture succeeds, but that shouldn't put you off trying.

I've only just noticed this thread as a result of the new posting and I'd like to respond to Richard's point. An "open" British Championship qualifying event may have an upper rating limit provided that that limit is at or above the level at which people qualify for the Championship automatically (so that no-one not yet qualified is excluded). I accept that this is not apparent from the published Regulations.