25th 4ncl Congress!

Details of upcoming UK events, please provide working links if possible.
Wadih Khoury
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:46 pm


I do find it hard to see how a Swiss section of, say, 20 people all in the same room could fail to be a gathering of 20 people, however well separated the tables were.

There may be some other exemption an event like this could slip under, but to my mind an adult Swiss would be in considerable tension with phase 3 rules.
I wouldn't personally try a normal Swiss under phase 3 rule, but I can see how it could be constructed.

A swiss is not really 100 players mingling, talking or whatever.

It is 50 distinct events, made of 2 players each. Each event lasts for up to 5 hours.
Then the next round is effectively another set of 50 distinct events.

The key for any organiser would be to make sure that those events stay distinct. What would it mean in practice?
That players are strictly forbidden to wander between their distanced tables, and that they leave the premises of the tournament upon finishing their game. The biggest contagion factor, and biggest risk to re-qualify all 50 events as a single event is if you have 40 players chatting, discussing, eating together indoors after their games.
Hence why, there should be no analysis room (unfortunately) and a strict policy of "finish your game and go outside or to your room or to any of the hotel's allowed facilities".

As I've said last year, chess events with proper protocols can be much safer than current rules for restaurants and pubs. There is a chance that they are indeed Phase 3 compatible for amateurs, and very likely within the law in the confines of a hospitality business (which would explain how the hotel signed off the 4NCL event)

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:01 pm

"I do find it hard to see how a Swiss section of, say, 20 people all in the same room could fail to be a gathering of 20 people, however well separated the tables were."

I agree, I can see how APA groups of 6 might work.

On the singing thing, I would imagine that choirs are probably more likely to obey the "rules" and even if they didn't, would politely leave when confronted by the police, whereas it's just possible that a group of boozed-up football fans would say, "terribly sorry, officer, but I am enjoying a quiet drink and watching football and I intend to continue to do so", or dissent in other ways.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Joseph Conlon » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:12 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm
A swiss is not really 100 players mingling, talking or whatever.

It is 50 distinct events, made of 2 players each. Each event lasts for up to 5 hours.
Then the next round is effectively another set of 50 distinct events.
The thing is, to me this doesn't seem hugely different from saying that a drinks party for 30 is really 10 separate gatherings of 3 people, where you gather with 3 people and then after 10 minutes start a new gathering to talk to other people.

While I agree about the actual transmission risks if everyone sat at their own board, plays for 5 hours and then went back to their hotel room, I would find it hard to argue with a straight face that an event is really 15 groups of 2, which scores its results, does pairings and awards trophies as if it is a section of 30.

Though, as work has always been a legitimate exemption to covid regulations on numbers, maybe one way to increase a section size would be to include Keith Arkell, Mark Hebden etc - they are tradesmen on their professional activity, and so I think come for free in terms of allowed numbers :)

Matthew Turner
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:20 am

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:12 pm
Wadih Khoury wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:59 pm
A swiss is not really 100 players mingling, talking or whatever.

It is 50 distinct events, made of 2 players each. Each event lasts for up to 5 hours.
Then the next round is effectively another set of 50 distinct events.
The thing is, to me this doesn't seem hugely different from saying that a drinks party for 30 is really 10 separate gatherings of 3 people, where you gather with 3 people and then after 10 minutes start a new gathering to talk to other people.

While I agree about the actual transmission risks if everyone sat at their own board, plays for 5 hours and then went back to their hotel room, I would find it hard to argue with a straight face that an event is really 15 groups of 2, which scores its results, does pairings and awards trophies as if it is a section of 30.

Though, as work has always been a legitimate exemption to covid regulations on numbers, maybe one way to increase a section size would be to include Keith Arkell, Mark Hebden etc - they are tradesmen on their professional activity, and so I think come for free in terms of allowed numbers :)
I agree with everything you say here, although I think your final point is more serious than smiley. I am also not sure if Keith Arkell is merely free in terms of numbers or whether he impacts everyone else. Presumably, Keith could do a coaching session with 100 (socially distanced) players, or a hundred player simultaneous as part of his business, so why not take part in a 100 player tournament?
An interesting corrolary of this approach is that you should be looking for bigger section sizes, not smaller ones!

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:42 am

I do think you have to take small steps, to err on the side of caution. At Golders Green we are doing 4 x 60 player (no spectators) events, in all play all sections of 6 to reduce mixing. This is a drastic reduction on 160 player events with non players in 5 sections.
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Matthew Turner
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:50 am

I think it is absolutely right that you have smaller numbers and apply the same social distancing rules that everybody else has to. Separating into groups of 6 may well be a good idea from a health/confidence perspective, but personally I don't think it impacts on the legality of the event for the reasons Joseph outlined.

Ian Thompson
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:52 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:20 am
Presumably, Keith could do a coaching session with 100 (socially distanced) players,
If that's within the rules, and I've no idea whether it is or not, then I don't see why a tournament with as many players as you like wouldn't also be within the rules if you had paid coaches available to analyse everyone's games after they'd finished.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:09 pm

I think it is clear we are seeing a definite shift in many areas from "anything not explicitly permitted shouldn't be allowed" - as was the case at the peak of the first pandemic wave - to "as long as it isn't explicitly forbidden, it might be worth trying out". So it appears to be with chess as well.
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Matt Bridgeman
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:16 pm

Guaranteed Events have said there are 130 places for chess players currently, so it will be a reasonably big return event potentially.

David Gilbert
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by David Gilbert » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:47 pm

There were 8,000 positive tests in the UK on Tuesday, 9,000 yesterday and 11,000 today. If that trend continues it won't matter what interpretation organisers put on the divide by six formula, the increased risk of transmissibility (and the possibility of a further delay in easing restrictions) will provide a natural barrier to entry. And I'll owe Liverpool Professor's 50p. Shush. Maybe he's forgotten!

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:57 pm

David Gilbert wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:47 pm
There were 8,000 positive tests in the UK on Tuesday, 9,000 yesterday and 11,000 today. If that trend continues it won't matter what interpretation organisers put on the divide by six formula, the increased risk of transmissibility (and the possibility of a further delay in easing restrictions) will provide a natural barrier to entry. And I'll owe Liverpool Professor's 50p. Shush. Maybe he's forgotten!
Lancashire case numbers looked fairly stable the last few days but have spiked again to the highest since early in the year, despite them throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it in places like Bolton. It was clear Whitty today addressing an NHS conference was completely uncertain what the numbers will do over the next two weeks. Potentially there could be two doublings to go through before the 4NCL event arrives.

NickFaulks
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:15 pm

But deaths remain disappointingly low.
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Matt Bridgeman
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:37 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:15 pm
But deaths remain disappointingly low.
Professor Ferguson of Imperial College has us in the first stages of the third wave, with early modelling suggesting it will peak at 100-200 deaths a day. But like most scientists they need more data than is available right now.

J T Melsom
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:53 pm

I have wondered for some time whether death(s) are the only measure that matters from the health perspective. The impact of long COVID seems to be disregarded by many in this debate.

NickFaulks
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:28 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:37 pm
Professor Ferguson of Imperial College has us in the first stages of the third wave, with early modelling suggesting it will peak at 100-200 deaths a day.
203,824 deaths by next June, I read. Any big number will do.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

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