25th 4ncl Congress!

Details of upcoming UK events, please provide working links if possible.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:00 pm

It's been announced that this is going ahead with reduced capacity. So what "Get Out of Jail" card are the hotel, Guaranteed Events and 4NCL playing?

Would it be referencing the guidance in
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... and-venues ?
Events

Conference centres and exhibition halls will also be able to open for conferences, exhibitions, tradeshows, and private dining and banqueting events (subject to the capacity limits set out below).

Indoor events and remaining outdoor events, such as elite sport events, business events, cinemas and live performance events are also permitted.

Attendance at these events is restricted to 50% of capacity up to 1,000 people for indoor events, and 50% of capacity up to 4,000 people for outdoor events.

Both outdoor and indoor gatherings or events, organised by a business, charity, public body or similar organisation, can be organised, subject to specific conditions: that they comply with COVID-secure guidance including taking reasonable steps to limit the risk of transmission, complete a related risk assessment; and ensure that those attending do not mix beyond what is permitted by the social contact limits (unless another exemption exists, such as for organised sport or exercise, supervised activities for children or a significant life event).

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm

Yeah it’s not entirely clear what you’ve got. Chess isn’t an organised indoor sport, and the exemptions beyond the rule of 6 are mentioned here;

‘Activities which are exempt from social group limits or which have different group limits include:

support groups 
childcare provided by a person who is registered under Part 3 of the Childcare Act 2006 or supervised activities for children 
education or training 
providing essential voluntary services or public support services, including digital access to public services, medical treatment, the provision of food bank or other support for the homeless or vulnerable people, blood donation services or support in an emergency 
voting, counting of votes or activities ancillary to voting or the counting of votes in an election or referendum.’  

...so your conferences, trade shows and exhibitions might fit as education or training, but I’m not sure where chess fits. Maybe there’s some more categories hiding?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:33 pm
Yeah it’s not entirely clear what you’ve got. Chess isn’t an organised indoor sport, and the exemptions beyond the rule of 6 are mentioned here;
In a manner of speaking, chess could be considered as multiple groups of two, three if you include a supervising arbiter. So run an austerity Congress where you had to use a phone or computer to find out pairings and standings, no bookstall and no analysis room.

I didn't think the "rule of six" had any magic properties in preventing transmission, it was just to make it easier for the Police and others to observe and count.

Simon Rogers
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Simon Rogers » Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:56 am

John Sellen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:14 pm
"You can forget about it if you want, why should the rest of us? "

That's fair comment
Obviously everyone will make their own judgement on the situation.
Maybe I can re-phrase my last sentence to :
Personally I have decided to forget about OTB chess at the moment and will re-assess the situation in the New Year
That's a shame. I was hoping to meet you at a chess congress like Scarborough, John.
Hopefully see you at next year's Blackpool Congress.
I hope that you keep contributing to the Forum.
You generally talk a lot of sense so I am hoping you post more often.

John Sellen
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by John Sellen » Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:44 pm

Thanks Simon

Nothing would give me more pleasure than for my pessimism about the return of OTB chess to prove to be unfounded
I guess like most people I will return when I feel safe and comfortable to do so
Whether that is this year or next who knows

Jacques Parry
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Jacques Parry » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 pm
In a manner of speaking, chess could be considered as multiple groups of two, three if you include a supervising arbiter. So run an austerity Congress where you had to use a phone or computer to find out pairings and standings, no bookstall and no analysis room.
You would have to argue that the (say) 20 players in the room constitute 10 "gatherings" of two rather than one "gathering" of 20. At first sight I would have thought that that was a bit far-fetched; but on the other hand it seems to be assumed that if you have 20 people in one room of a pub there are as many "gatherings" as there are tables. So maybe you could get away with it, in the (unlikely?) event of its coming to court. I wonder whether 4NCL have sought advice about this.

Tim Spanton
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Tim Spanton » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 pm
In a manner of speaking, chess could be considered as multiple groups of two, three if you include a supervising arbiter. So run an austerity Congress where you had to use a phone or computer to find out pairings and standings, no bookstall and no analysis room.
You would have to argue that the (say) 20 players in the room constitute 10 "gatherings" of two rather than one "gathering" of 20. At first sight I would have thought that that was a bit far-fetched; but on the other hand it seems to be assumed that if you have 20 people in one room of a pub there are as many "gatherings" as there are tables. So maybe you could get away with it, in the (unlikely?) event of its coming to court. I wonder whether 4NCL have sought advice about this.
The rule in pubs, as I understand it, is that people must be at socially-distanced tables. There does not seem to be a law against people leaving the pub and returning to sit at a different socially-distanced table. Reads like a blueprint for a legal chess tournament.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:57 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 pm
Jacques Parry wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:31 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:50 pm
In a manner of speaking, chess could be considered as multiple groups of two, three if you include a supervising arbiter. So run an austerity Congress where you had to use a phone or computer to find out pairings and standings, no bookstall and no analysis room.
You would have to argue that the (say) 20 players in the room constitute 10 "gatherings" of two rather than one "gathering" of 20. At first sight I would have thought that that was a bit far-fetched; but on the other hand it seems to be assumed that if you have 20 people in one room of a pub there are as many "gatherings" as there are tables. So maybe you could get away with it, in the (unlikely?) event of its coming to court. I wonder whether 4NCL have sought advice about this.
The rule in pubs, as I understand it, is that people must be at socially-distanced tables. There does not seem to be a law against people leaving the pub and returning to sit at a different socially-distanced table. Reads like a blueprint for a legal chess tournament.
Thank you. I am quite looking forward to June 24 (my first OTB event for 18 months) followed by lots more FIDE rated chess!
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chess England Events - https://chessengland.com/
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Don’t stop playing chess!

NickFaulks
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 pm

John Sellen wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:44 pm
I guess like most people I will return when I feel safe and comfortable to do so
My impression is that most people will return to doing most of the things they enjoy when the Government allows them to.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Jacques Parry
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Jacques Parry » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:34 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:47 pm
The rule in pubs, as I understand it, is that people must be at socially-distanced tables. There does not seem to be a law against people leaving the pub and returning to sit at a different socially-distanced table. Reads like a blueprint for a legal chess tournament.
As I understand the legislation, social distancing is an additional requirement: even with social distancing, you're still not allowed to have a gathering of more than six. If you had a pub quiz, with five teams of four, each team at a separate table, could that really be described as five gatherings rather than one?

David Sedgwick
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:42 pm

Jacques Parry wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:34 pm
As I understand the legislation, social distancing is an additional requirement: even with social distancing, you're still not allowed to have a gathering of more than six. If you had a pub quiz, with five teams of four, each team at a separate table, could that really be described as five gatherings rather than one?
A pub quiz on that basis took place two days ago at a pub near me.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:23 pm

There seem to be many interpretations - choirs are not allowed to gather to practise, but I understand that at one pub, people attending to watch an Association Football match on TV stood to sing the national anthem before the game. That was ok, apparently.

Matthew Turner
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm

Without commenting on the logic of all this, I think the key is whether the activity is organised.
So a choir is not allowed, but people can meet spontaneously at the pub and have a singalong. I don't think you could have a facebook group organising a meet-up at a pub (with more than 30 outside, or 6 inside)
So, I think David's pub quiz is technically against the rules.

How this works with the 4NCL, I don't know, so it will be interesting to see what regulations / restrictions they announce. Presumably you could limit sections to 30 and play the event outdoors, but presumably there is a more sensible format allowed.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by Joseph Conlon » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:46 pm

I can see an argument that, say, if a congress is split into separate sections of 6, then each section defines its own bubble, even if everyone is attending the same congress (in the way that lots of groups of <= 6 can all go to the theatre to see the same show).

I do find it hard to see how a Swiss section of, say, 20 people all in the same room could fail to be a gathering of 20 people, however well separated the tables were.

There may be some other exemption an event like this could slip under, but to my mind an adult Swiss would be in considerable tension with phase 3 rules.

David Sedgwick
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Location: Croydon

Re: 25th 4ncl Congress!

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:58 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:37 pm
So, I think David's pub quiz is technically against the rules.
For the avoidance of any doubt, the quiz was nothing to do with me. I had not realised that it was going to happen until a member of the staff asked me whether I wished to take part. I politely declined.