Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

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JustinHorton
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Your claim:
MJMcCready wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:27 pm
all world champions are practitioners of the French Defence
The reality:
MJMcCready wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:41 pm
The French has been an integral part of many top players’ repertoires
Please, treat us to more of this academic rigour
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:14 pm

Also:
MJMcCready wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:21 pm
In the end I threw it away.
Clever of you to be able to quote the foreword of a book you've thrown away.
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MJMcCready
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by MJMcCready » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:24 pm

Well that doesn't discount I kept records of it and almost everything else I've read as that was when I stopped buying books on opening theory altogether. Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread any further as the original text appears to have become buried in it already, and that wasn't the intention. I think I've made myself clear enough.

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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:46 pm

Much as it pains me to bail MJM out, I have found this in a preview.

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (76.55 KiB) Viewed 740 times

In relation to Carlsen, it is a bit of a stretch. It was signed off by the authors, not someone else.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:24 am

We already have that, above. The point is that it is very different to the "all world champions" he originally claimed to have read (as I knew, since of course I checked my own copy for any such reference).
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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JustinHorton
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:28 am

MJMcCready wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:24 pm
Well that doesn't discount I kept records of it and almost everything else I've read
What, you copied out that passage from the foreword? Remarkable, and still more remarkable you weren't able to cite it more accurately then.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:45 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:24 am
The point is that it is very different to the "all world champions" he originally claimed to have read
You certainly wouldn't associate Fischer with playing the French, nor Kasparov really. Botvinnik, Petrosian and Karpov certainly played it. There's a handful of Tal games, including against Fischer.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by MJMcCready » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:36 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:28 am
MJMcCready wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:24 pm
Well that doesn't discount I kept records of it and almost everything else I've read
What, you copied out that passage from the foreword? Remarkable, and still more remarkable you weren't able to cite it more accurately then.
It didn't seem necessary at the time and neither does focusing on minor points insistently when there are more significant ones made. There was quite a lot wrong wrong with that book I noted at the time but that's nine years ago now and hardly worth dwelling on now. If I'd have known it would have drawn such attention, I would never have made the point in the first place as all that's happened is the thread has been hijacked, which is a bit silly really.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:03 am

I could not entirely remember the details so opened google. I note reviews of the book are available online including: https://mccreadyandchess.wordpress.com/2012/10/

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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:59 am

MJMcCready wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:36 am
neither does focusing on minor points insistently
Academic standards becomes "focusing on minor points" when you turn out to have wildly overstated what the authors claimed
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:39 am

Soon after a detailed criticism of the usage "Art. Minasian", which we are told should be Artashes Minasian, there is a reference to "Shaun Talbot". Who he?
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by John Upham » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:13 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:39 am
Soon after a detailed criticism of the usage "Art. Minasian", which we are told should be Artashes Minasian, there is a reference to "Shaun Talbot". Who he?

Shaun Talbot was the brother of Peugeot Talbot, Chrysler Talbot and the Great Grandson of Fox Talbot.

Not to be confused with Shaun Mark Taulbut.
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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:04 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:45 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:24 am
The point is that it is very different to the "all world champions" he originally claimed to have read
You certainly wouldn't associate Fischer with playing the French, nor Kasparov really. Botvinnik, Petrosian and Karpov certainly played it. There's a handful of Tal games, including against Fischer.
Karpov not that much, though - isn't his best known game with it that drubbing by Geller? 1....e5, c6, and c5 were all much more often used.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 16, 2021 6:10 pm

Chessgames have nineteen Karpov games on the Black side of the French, including one (which arose by transposition) against a regular on this forum.
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"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Nick Ivell
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Re: Beyond Material - Ignore the Face Value of Your Pieces

Post by Nick Ivell » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:18 pm

That would be me. I don't think Karpov was ever comfortable in the French, and he must have been put off by his tonking against Geller.

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