Agreed but one difficulty, if I can leave aside second- or third-hand rumours and also focus on the present day, is that many incidents of the type we're discussing are unwitnessed. That means that, when a complaint is made, all too frequently it's one person's word against another. That makes deciding what's true and what isn't rather harder. Of course, if several complainants (preferably complainants not known to one another so there's no question of a conspiracy) make substantially the same complaint against the same person then there's a definite case to be made.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:17 amThis is kind of why we try and find out what is true and what isn't, isn't it
Brian Eley
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Re: Brian Eley
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Re: Brian Eley
Well yes, but isn't that both a common pattern (perhaps even the common pattern) and basically what is alleged to have taken place in this instance?Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:16 pmThat means that, when a complaint is made, all too frequently it's one person's word against another. That makes deciding what's true and what isn't rather harder. Of course, if several complainants (preferably complainants not known to one another so there's no question of a conspiracy) make substantially the same complaint against the same person then there's a definite case to be made.
"Do you play chess?"
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Re: Brian Eley
Justin. I've said before that I feel there's limited value in banging on about the Eley case because, as you fairly accept in your latest post, we're talking about allegations. I don't deny that they're plausible but how probable does something have to be before it's used to destroy someone's reputation?JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:35 pmWell yes, but isn't that both a common pattern (perhaps even the common pattern) and basically what is alleged to have taken place in this instance?Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:16 pmThat means that, when a complaint is made, all too frequently it's one person's word against another. That makes deciding what's true and what isn't rather harder. Of course, if several complainants (preferably complainants not known to one another so there's no question of a conspiracy) make substantially the same complaint against the same person then there's a definite case to be made.
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Re: Brian Eley
I don't really know what "destroy someone's reputation" means here. A reputation should be based on the facts, yes? If we establish the facts of how somebody acted, then that might or might not affect their reputation, but why is that an issue?
"Do you play chess?"
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Re: Brian Eley
I don't want to say very much.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:49 amThat's interesting. Can you tell us any more? I assume you mean something along the lines of a formal approach to the police rather than sending a snatch squad....
The intention was to bring the matter to the attention of Jack Straw, the then Home Secretary. Whether that didn't happen, or whether he didn't do anything or get anywhere, I don't know.
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Re: Brian Eley
A reputation should indeed be based on facts. That's not an issue. Where we seem to differ is that you're still hoping for facts to emerge while I consider it's unlikely. It's entirely possible that David Anderton took certain steps but that all those who were privy to those steps are now dead. That's a hypothesis that, more or less by definition, it's impossible to disprove. While I neither believe nor disbelieve it, I just don't see how any amount of "debate" can reject that hypothesis.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:03 pmI don't really know what "destroy someone's reputation" means here. A reputation should be based on the facts, yes? If we establish the facts of how somebody acted, then that might or might not affect their reputation, but why is that an issue?
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Re: Brian Eley
I don't think it is, because if steps were taken formally, then records of them should be in the possession of the ECF.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:50 pmThat's a hypothesis that, more or less by definition, it's impossible to disprove.
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Re: Brian Eley
You could start by asked the appropriate officials at the ECF whether historical material is archived and what their current data retention policy is (for current documentation) and when (if ever) information can be made public, and who their Data Controller is (and direct questions towards that individual). I presume the ECF is the body that 'inherited' the records of the BCF, but if not, then you could ask that as well.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:42 pmI don't think it is, because if steps were taken formally, then records of them should be in the possession of the ECF.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:50 pmThat's a hypothesis that, more or less by definition, it's impossible to disprove.
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Re: Brian Eley
Yeah, I've been thinking about this and I probably ought to do it. But who would be the appropriate individual(s)?
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Re: Brian Eley
Worth trying - Minutes of ECF Board meetings, and I beIieve those of the predecessor BCF, are published for all to see. But, for exactIy that reason, I'd expect them to be circumlocutious over what action was or wasn't taken over this particuIar matter.Christopher Kreuzer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:16 pmYou could start by asked the appropriate officials at the ECF whether historical material is archived and what their current data retention policy is (for current documentation) and when (if ever) information can be made public, and who their Data Controller is (and direct questions towards that individual). I presume the ECF is the body that 'inherited' the records of the BCF, but if not, then you could ask that as well.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:42 pmI don't think it is, because if steps were taken formally, then records of them should be in the possession of the ECF.Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:50 pmThat's a hypothesis that, more or less by definition, it's impossible to disprove.
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Re: Brian Eley
Well yes, I wouldn't expect public minutes to be all that revealing.
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lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Brian Eley
JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:39 pmYeah, I've been thinking about this and I probably ought to do it. But who would be the appropriate individual(s)?
I can supply the names of who the officials were at the time if you wish.
These are a matter of public record via the BCF Yearbooks.
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Re: Brian Eley
Kind of you, though in the first instance I imagine it would be the current officials who were responsible for present and past records, no?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
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Re: Brian Eley
But it would be useful to know, I think.David Sedgwick wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:14 pmI don't want to say very much.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:49 amThat's interesting. Can you tell us any more? I assume you mean something along the lines of a formal approach to the police rather than sending a snatch squad....
The intention was to bring the matter to the attention of Jack Straw, the then Home Secretary. Whether that didn't happen, or whether he didn't do anything or get anywhere, I don't know.
Also, I don't think I have ever seen Kingpin 27 and the relevant article Skewer (or if I have, I've forgotten). Does anybody have it?JustinHorton wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:28 pmIt would be good and helpful to see these pieces.Kevin Thurlow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:17 pmJames Plaskett wrote a piece in “Chess” complaining that BCF appointed Eley as national coach after a large number of accusations were made against him. DW Anderton wrote a piece published the next month, saying something like, “We sacked him when he did something wrong later”, thereby ignoring the serious point that James made. This seemed a surprising thing for an apparently hotshot lawyer to do, as it gave the impression that he was not disputing that point. I don’t have those issues of “Chess” in front of me, somebody else will have to check if I have remembered correctly.
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Re: Brian Eley
James has always been in the vanguard of expressing concerns about Eley. What happened in Clacton would nowadays be described as grooming.