Brian Eley

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NickFaulks
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:03 pm

What really troubles me about this thread is that we are discussing bad things which happened 40 years ago and wondering why nothing was done. I have little doubt that in 2062 this forum ( well, probably not me ) will be discussing bad things which happened in 2022 and wondering why nothing was done. It is always the way.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:22 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:42 pm

Question number one - It's not a question of being "my contention".
It is where Eley is concerned, isn't it?
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:42 pm
Question number two: Do you have it on good authority that Anderton did none of those things and, if so, wouId you care to share the source of your knowledge with those of us who are Iess well-informed?
There should be records if he did, shouldn't there?
NickFaulks wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:03 pm
What really troubles me about this thread is that we are discussing bad things which happened 40 years ago and wondering why nothing was done. I have little doubt that in 2062 this forum ( well, probably not me ) will be discussing bad things which happened in 2022 and wondering why nothing was done. It is always the way.

It doesn't have to be though, But that depends on us learning from what went wrong in the past, which in turn depends on us establishing what happened and what did not.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:26 pm

"What really troubles me about this thread is that we are discussing bad things which happened 40 years ago and wondering why nothing was done."

I'm not wondering - it is the normal attitude (not just in chess) to cover up unpleasantness as people think it makes you look bad if you reveal what's going on. Of course, it makes you look worse if you are caught covering it up. Could such people be prosecuted for assisting the offender?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:28 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:17 pm
James Plaskett wrote a piece in “Chess” complaining that BCF appointed Eley as national coach after a large number of accusations were made against him. DW Anderton wrote a piece published the next month, saying something like, “We sacked him when he did something wrong later”, thereby ignoring the serious point that James made. This seemed a surprising thing for an apparently hotshot lawyer to do, as it gave the impression that he was not disputing that point. I don’t have those issues of “Chess” in front of me, somebody else will have to check if I have remembered correctly.
It would be good and helpful to see these pieces.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by Roger Lancaster » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:48 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:22 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:42 pm

Question number one - It's not a question of being "my contention".
It is where Eley is concerned, isn't it?

My answer was to your assertion/question which was "Just to clarify here, your contention is that an employee dismissed after multiple reports of inappropriate behaviour towards children would have gone to a (public) employment tribunal, and would have expected their case to be well-received there?" . There was no "contention" on my part in the case I mentioned and, similarIy, no "contention" where Eley was concerned - and it's tiresome having to repeatedly point this out.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:16 am

Well that must be very stressful for you, but personally I don't believe Eley was going to chance his arm at a tribunal, and I'm not going to believe Anderton thought so either until I see documentary evidence to that effect.

Which, you know, really ought to exist.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:16 am
Well that must be very stressful for you, but personally I don't believe Eley was going to chance his arm at a tribunal, and I'm not going to believe Anderton thought so either until I see documentary evidence to that effect.

Which, you know, really ought to exist.
Not stressful, Justin, just boring. I barely knew David Anderton but, from what I've heard of him, he probably did what he thought best at the time. Without the full facts, we're just guessing - and those who feel he got it wrong might perhaps have spoken up while he was still alive and able to defend himself. What history tells us, and female chess players have confirmed this, is that chess today isn't free of sex pests and worse. My belief is that, rather than endlessly debate what Anderton might or might not have done 40 years ago, we should be much more concerned with the here and now.

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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:38 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am
I barely knew David Anderton but, from what I've heard of him, he probably did what he thought best at the time.
I don't give a good damn what you've heard of him. Other people have a different account and what I would like to know is, is there any evidence to show he did the right thing?
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am
Without the full facts, we're just guessing
Without trying to find out the full facts, we don't know them, do we?
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am
and those who feel he got it wrong might perhaps have spoken up while he was still alive
Given that other people have suggested they spoke up and were ignored, this is quite a remarkable phrasing
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am
rather than endlessly debate what Anderton might or might not have done 40 years ago
When you say "rather than endlessly debate", you mean "rather than debate at all"
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am
we should be much more concerned with the here and now.
We all of us understand that you do not properly address the here and now without properly addressing what happened in the past. If instead our major concern is for reputations and not stirring things up, that is likely to reflect itself in present and future actions.

So let me ask again. If David Anderton dealt with the allegations properly, part of that would have involved those allegations being recorded, and responses to them formally discuseed and hence also recorded.

Were they? If they were, it should be possible to show this. So were they?
Last edited by JustinHorton on Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:13 am

Of course it's extremely important to bear in mind that the reason we are discussing this in this way in 2022 is that it was not dealt with properly in 1980, or subsequently. Hence it's historical, and it's in the nature of historical inquiry that sometimes it deals with the actions or reputations of dead people.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am

My view is that almost all allegations of this type were dealt with poorly at the time. I do not know, and do not expect to ever know, if David Anderton and others dealt with it well by the standards of the time. But I consider the standards of the time inadequate.

I understand Eley's case attracts particular attention because he was a well known player but it is not an isolated case. I found J N Walker's case particularly horrifying. Guardian - teacher who preyed on children jailed

It seems to me that although Eley's crimes will remain unclear, it is clear that children were not properly safeguarded in the past. I do think the ECF came to understand the importance of safeguarding and published help to other organisations. This is where I would want them to focus.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:51 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am
I do think the ECF came to understand the importance of safeguarding and published help to other organisations. This is where I would want them to focus.
I would like this to be true, but I doubt that it is likely to be true in the absence of a proper review of their past actions. This - realising and accepting past faults - would be a normal and generally necessary means of arriving at best practice in the present.

(I mean I think we understand that a person who is unwilling to examine their past behaviour is not going to substantially improve their conduct in the future, if only because in order to address a problem you need to accept that it exists. Without wanting to map the individual tooo closely onto the collective, the same surely applies to some degree to organisation: we understand that there are patterns of behaviour, and that they are likely to continue unless they are identified. And at the very least, if our starting point with regards to the past is that such-and-such was definitely a good chap who we know was diligent in their affairs, then we are in the wrong place to do better in the present.)
"Do you play chess?"
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:09 am

We all know the saying that those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it. However, the lapse of time means our understanding of history is frequently imperfect and here, unless someone comes up with hard facts, none of the so-called "debate" leads us anywhere - hence, Justin = boring. One positive thing that has happened in the past 40 years is that coaches working with children or vulnerable adults are now expected to be subject to Enhanced DBS checks. That's more detailed than the Basic check, which (and I think I'm right in saying this) only throws up unspent convictions, and should weed out most undesirables. That still leaves the tricky child protection issue, and I'm here thinking about today and not 40 years ago, of what to do about those who are the subject of rumours but without hard facts - remembering, all the while, that some rumours are untrue.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:17 am

This is kind of why we try and find out what is true and what isn't, isn't it
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:40 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:51 am
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am
I do think the ECF came to understand the importance of safeguarding and published help to other organisations. This is where I would want them to focus.
I would like this to be true, but I doubt that it is likely to be true in the absence of a proper review of their past actions. This - realising and accepting past faults - would be a normal and generally necessary means of arriving at best practice in the present.

(I mean I think we understand that a person who is unwilling to examine their past behaviour is not going to substantially improve their conduct in the future, if only because in order to address a problem you need to accept that it exists. Without wanting to map the individual too closely onto the collective, the same surely applies to some degree to organisation: we understand that there are patterns of behaviour, and that they are likely to continue unless they are identified. And at the very least, if our starting point with regards to the past is that such-and-such was definitely a good chap who we know was diligent in their affairs, then we are in the wrong place to do better in the present.)
I am not going to comment on what was or was not done in the early 1980s as I don't have enough knowledge of the facts to do so.

However, I can state that, after Eley absconded and was located in the Netherlands, English chess officials did try to have him returned to the UK. I was a party to one such attempt in 1997.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Brian Eley

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:49 am

That's interesting. Can you tell us any more? I assume you mean something along the lines of a formal approach to the police rather than sending a snatch squad....
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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