ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

General discussions about ratings.
Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:04 am

Hi,

I am using Swiss-Manager Unicode Version for Windows 7 and newer (12.06.2022, Build 14.0.0.18, Filegröße 5.805.904), the latest version, whose latest bug fix from the documentation would appear to be from earlier this month.

There seems to be something very strange happening with the download and conversion of the ENG Rapid Rating list (and as far as I can see, only with this list). The parameters to import the rating list are standard - Unicode unchecked, Select rating list import file set to https://www.ecfrating.org.uk/v2/new/api ... g_list_csv and I just type in "June 2022" in the Date validity field, before pressing the "Start Import" button.

SwissManagerMsg2.txt says Records-Input 26350, Records-Output 26350.

All seems normal (these numbers are about what one expects)

The Rating lists are displayed in order and ENGR has a record labelled ENGR (June 2022), dated 27/06/2022, showing 26350 records, and the converted file with a filepath and filename of Ratinglist_ENG_RAPID.ELO.

Ganz normal.

The number of the records (26350) is the same as for the ENG standard list. Never thought about this before, but as they are using the same input file, and presumably supposed to be using different fields in each record to get the standard or rapid rating, respectively, this must be correct, too.

I go to Input > Enter Players, press the Input from List button.

If I select the ENG (June 2022) rating list, and type in a NAT. rating from (some value that I specify) to (some other value that I specify) and then press the Start search button, then I get a bunch of player records returned to select my choice from.

Alles OK.

However, if I select the ENGR (June 2022) rating list, and type in a NAT. rating from (some value that I specify) to (some other value that I specify) and then press the Start search button, then I get a message in the "Statuszeile" of "0 players found in rating list".
SM - 0 players found in rating list.jpg
SM - 0 players found in rating list.jpg (280.26 KiB) Viewed 2309 times
Very strange, very frustrating if you are busy trying to load players into a tournament.

Investigation continues...

If instead, I select the ENGR (June 2022) rating list and in the field labelled Number random players, I type 999 (the largest number allowed), and then press Start search, hey presto, I get 999 players returned.

However, every single one of them has a Rtg.Nat. of 0.

Gurr.

One searching further, I see that for most of the random records returned, there is a blank in the Club field. However, there appears to be a rating value for a few of the records - but only for those for whom the player has had or has a rapid rating.

For instance, the randomly returned "Adair, James R" "IM" has a Rtg. Nat of "0", but a club of "2410".
SM - 999 players found in rating list.jpg
SM - 999 players found in rating list.jpg (463.42 KiB) Viewed 2309 times
Now, if one looks at the online rating record for James Adair, one finds that he has/had a 2410H online rapid rating.

Is it possible that the introduction of the new types of rating category has broken the rapid rating import in Swiss Manager?

It works for ENG standard ratings, but possibly this new functionality has not been carried forward for ENG rapid ratings?

NickFaulks
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:52 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:04 am
Is it possible that the introduction of the new types of rating category has broken the rapid rating import in Swiss Manager?
I have heard that elsewhere.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 7162
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by John Upham » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:32 am

Yes, we had similar issues during the Hampshire Megafinal this past weekend.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:15 am

Does anyone know if Vega has been updated to understand the ECF rating system since the major update a couple of years ago, and whether it accepts the recent new ECF rating categories?

I am about to purchase licenses for Vega, as a fallback, should there be problems in the future with SM, but obviously I would need to know that it correctly handles the ECF rating system as it currently exists.

I guess I will also start to fully explore the ECF LMS. I understand it works for tournaments as well as leagues... is that correct?
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:17 am

I also found a second massive bug with the latest edition of SM - fantastically reproducible and a real gobsmacker - which caused enormous problems on Saturday past. I also have workarounds. Will describe this bug later today, when I get back in, later this evening.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:44 pm

The ECF has now resolved this issue, and I can confirm that the functionality now works as it should.

I thank Brian Valentine and Dave Thomas for their good work and their clear communication.

User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 7162
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by John Upham » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:56 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:44 pm
The ECF has now resolved this issue, and I can confirm that the functionality now works as it should.

I thank Brian Valentine and Dave Thomas for their good work and their clear communication.
Good news.

What was the second massive bug Paul?
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:00 pm

Now for the second - very strange bug - which seems to be afflicting Swiss Manager.

I am using Swiss-Manager Unicode Version for Windows 7 and newer (12.06.2022, Build 14.0.0.18, Filegröße 5.805.904), the latest version, whose latest bug fix from the documentation would appear to be from earlier this month. The Help > Info... option gives a release date of 2022/06/12.

The bug concerns both Manual Pairings (Pairings > Manual Pairings...) and Set new player (Pairings > Set new player...)

Normally one simply mouses over the name of the player that one wants to select for pairing and clicks. This selects the player and inserts them in the Player1 or Player2 position respectively.

See the following for an example:
Selecting 2nd and 3rd in the list.png
Selecting 2nd and 3rd in the list.png (146.79 KiB) Viewed 2074 times
Here "McKeown, Aoife" and "McKeown, Paul", 2nd and 3rd in the tournament entry list (sorted alphabetically) are paired against each other.

As it should be.

However, what happens when we try to select the 1st player in the tournament entry list (sorted alphabetically)?
Selecting 1st in the list - doesn't work.png
Selecting 1st in the list - doesn't work.png (125.1 KiB) Viewed 2074 times
The player's name, "McKeown, Aidan" in this case is highlighted with a dotted line around the name, but no selection occurs.

Selecting the first player does not work!

I could picture pointer issues with a linked list or index problems with an array, perhaps, leading to such a problem.

But this isn't the end of the strangeness - there are a couple of workarounds.

Expand the width of the column with the players' names, so that the following column, which gives the players seedings in the tournament. Then select the player by their seeding.
Showing ranking and selecting 1st listed player by their ranking - works.png
Showing ranking and selecting 1st listed player by their ranking - works.png (124.36 KiB) Viewed 2074 times
This works!

Or type the significant characters in the name of the player in the box at the bottom left of the Manual pairing or Set new player modal window
Typing in significant characters in search box - selection of first in list works.png
Typing in significant characters in search box - selection of first in list works.png (124.36 KiB) Viewed 2074 times
This also works!

[I should add for the sake of clarity, none of those other namesakes are related.]

NickFaulks
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:49 pm

Quite extraordinary! I am using Swiss Manager for the first time in my life and have wasted at least an hour this afternoon struggling with exactly this bug. By a fluke I fixed it by changing D'xxxxx to xxxxx in case it somehow disliked the apostrophe and that worked - but it seems only because it changed the alphabetical order.

Your workaround is much better and is appreciated, but I wish you had posted it yesterday!
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:24 pm

Swiss Manager is very long in the tooth, beginning in the mid-eighties as a university project, and revised a huge number of times since then.

It has lots of functionality, but its user interface is unintuitive to put it politely, it has also a very inflexible workflow, and it is rather prone to bugs, which considering the antiquity of much of the codebase is unsurprising. It really needs refactoring to improve its maintainability. I suspect, however, that its developer struggles to see the faults in his baby.

I also suspect that some of the more nerdish arbiters/arsebiters find it wonderful to blow off about how adept they are with it, helping preserve an air of mystery about their craft.

There are some good guides about which help explain what is going on. They don't necessarily help much, though, when you hit a new "feature".

I have used it at least once a week every week for the past six or seven years, and know it inside out and back to front. However, I would gladly use something else which was more reliable, had a more human workflow and was generally less cussed, provided the functionality was covered.

User avatar
John Upham
Posts: 7162
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by John Upham » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:50 pm

I agree with you. It is flexible but it is easy to break things. The conversion of some of the UI messages from German has not worked well and needs an English speaker to update it. I would say that it is powerful but scary and I have been an IT analyst in the City for some years and probably also a nerd.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChess
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:02 am

The bug persists in version 14.0.0.19, which is given the same date for release 2022/06/12, as for 14.0.0.18. However the filesize is definitely different at 5.807.360, rather than 5.805.904.

Paul McKeown
Posts: 3732
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
Location: Hayes (Middx)

Re: ENG Rapid Ratings in Swiss Manager

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:59 pm

The bug appears finally to be have been fixed in 14.0.0.22, dated 2022/07/24.

Peter Harrington
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: ENG Standard play 4-digit ratings

Post by Peter Harrington » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:23 pm

The new 4-digit rating system appears to undervalue player ratings. For example at the current British Championships in Torquay, I played in the week 1 U1750 event. My grade going into the event was 1531 (or 111 in 'old money'). I was disappointed and confused by the system-generated performance rating of 1477. I scored 3 out of 7:
Rd 1 loss against a 1674
Rd 2 draw against a 1655
Rd 3 win against a 1602
Rd 4 bye half point
Rd 5 loss against 1540
Rd 6 win against a 1706
Rd 7 loss against a 1592

Baffled by the new system, I converted player grades into 3-digit codes and re-calculated my performance rating in 'old money', and came up with a tournament rating of 115, which converts to 1563. And this is what I was expecting to see, and 1563 is much better than 1477. Can anyone shed any light on this situation?

Tim Spanton
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Re: ENG Standard play 4-digit ratings

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:48 pm

Peter Harrington wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:23 pm
The new 4-digit rating system appears to undervalue player ratings. For example at the current British Championships in Torquay, I played in the week 1 U1750 event. My grade going into the event was 1531 (or 111 in 'old money'). I was disappointed and confused by the system-generated performance rating of 1477. I scored 3 out of 7:
Rd 1 loss against a 1674
Rd 2 draw against a 1655
Rd 3 win against a 1602
Rd 4 bye half point
Rd 5 loss against 1540
Rd 6 win against a 1706
Rd 7 loss against a 1592

Baffled by the new system, I converted player grades into 3-digit codes and re-calculated my performance rating in 'old money', and came up with a tournament rating of 115, which converts to 1563. And this is what I was expecting to see, and 1563 is much better than 1477. Can anyone shed any light on this situation?
I have no idea how the system came up with 1477 - the correct TPR on the figures given is 1562 (1561.5 unrounded)

Post Reply