FIDE Change to 400 point rule

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Roger de Coverly
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FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:38 pm

Something which the titled players are aware of, but which may not have percolated downwards is this change from 1st January 2022

from
https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B022022
A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest.
Thus the second time you play someone more than 400 points below you, the minimal rating rewards have been reduced even more.
Players over 2400 have a K factor of 10 as well.

Ian Thompson
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:50 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:38 pm
Something which the titled players are aware of
Not all of them. See my post from a few days ago. The GM's Facebook posts were asking FIDE to correct the 'error'.
Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:59 am
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:37 am
Right. There's been a recent rule change such that a player can only upgrade one opponent over the course of a tournament, although typically that wouldn't matter much.
See https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0 (Open de Salon de Provence) for an example of this new rule in practice. The player believes he would have gained 2 points for the event under the old rules instead of losing 0.6 points and is not happy (see his Facebook posts).

If you look at https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0 you can see the effect of the change for the lower rated player where one of his losses resulted in him losing 0.0 points.

Is this rule change inflationary? For the game between these two players, the winner gained 0.8 points and the loser lost 0.0 points. Under the old rules, it would have been +0.8 for the winner and -1.6 for the loser.

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MJMcCready
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by MJMcCready » Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm

So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.

Ian Thompson
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:

"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."

That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.

Richard Bates
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:03 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm
MJMcCready wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:

"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."

That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.
Surely your interpretation is the old rule? The new rule says that the opponents should be treated as a difference of 400 (Lalic), 536, and 473

Ian Thompson
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:03 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm
MJMcCready wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:

"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."

That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.
Surely your interpretation is the old rule? The new rule says that the opponents should be treated as a difference of 400 (Lalic), 536, and 473
For players rated more than 400 points above you, I don't think there's been any change. That depends on how you define an "upgrade". I've assumed it only relates to increasing the rating of players more then 400 points below you to be exactly 400 points below you. I don't think it means to not decrease the rating of someone more than 400 points above you to be exactly 400 points above you.

If an upgrade does apply to higher rated players then the differences would be 1068 (Lalic), 400, 400.

Reg Clucas
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Reg Clucas » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm

Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:24 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm
For players rated more than 400 points above you, I don't think there's been any change.
Symmetry has disappeared. The recent South Wales Open is a case in point. Unike most UK events, it was all one section. Thus there were some 400 point or greater mismatches.

Jack Rudd's rating record for the tournament shows that his first round opponent was treated as being 1931 instead of the published 1754.

That gave Jack a gain of 1.6 points whilst the loser only conceded 0.40. Both are k=20.

https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0
https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0

Richard Bates
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Richard Bates » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm

Reg Clucas wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm
Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.
And obviously ludicrous. It will kill the prospect of attracting strong players to FIDE rated opens in the UK. Or will force organisers to implement strict lower rating limits - although even that probably won't be sufficient. (and of course not just opens - the changes will presumably apply to longer lasting events - leagues, county chess etc)

And to have come up with such a change at a time when running into vastly under-rated players is as likely as ever...

Ian Thompson
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:11 pm

Reg Clucas wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm
Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.
I think 0.0 is wrong. I can see that's what https://2700chess.com/ is saying. Is it anywhere else? The rating difference is 452 so Carlsen should have gained about 0.5 points. The rating difference would have to be about 800 points for the gain to be 0.0.

Brian Valentine
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:04 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm

...... (and of course not just opens - the changes will presumably apply to longer lasting events - leagues, county chess etc)

And to have come up with such a change at a time when running into vastly under-rated players is as likely as ever...
There are no plans to make a similar change to ECF rating.

Brian Valentine
Manager ECF Rating

NickFaulks
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
And obviously ludicrous.
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Ian Thompson
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:58 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
chess-results is showing Carlsen having gained 3.1 points from the 6 games he's played at the time of writing. Was it something different yesterday? I didn't look.

2700chess.com is now showing Carlsen gaining 0.6 points for his game against Stanojoski, and 3.1 points in total, so they've corrected what they were showing yesterday.

Richard Bates
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Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:10 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
And obviously ludicrous.
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
For clarification, it's the actual change that i think is bad, not the chess-results erroneous application of the change.

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