Ukraine

[John McKenna]

Intersting Questions on Ukraine the West chooses not to answer in RT News http://rt.com/news/ukraine-west-questio ... wered-994/

Also Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/

This is an example of what David Robertson has elsewhere labelled, "uncritical Googling".

It would be surprising if an Estonian Foreign Minister did believe that the snipers at the Maidan were Ukrainian provocateurs; the default Estonian view would be that dark elements in the Kremlin would be behind any such provocation...

Basically the Estonians (and the Latvians) understand the message very clearly: you too have a very large Russian minority, not all of whom are well integrated into your society.

Before we go too far - and I see that above Roger has already reached the South Atlantic - I must point out that David Robertson tried to stick that "uncritical Googling" label on me first. However, as I pointed out at the time he did so wrongly. (Unless, of course, the phrase is a euphemism for something else in David's dark and brooding brainbox.)

Also, in the UK you have minorities - one or two of which may become large in years to come - "not all of whom are well integrated into your society". What message are you meant to take from that? That the UK may be reunited with the Holy See, one day, or become an Emirate perhaps, even a Satrapy.

[Colin S Crouch]

Excellent reply by Paul on the random comments by the "armchair arbiter".

I am baffled as to what Roger is trying to srgue.
OK, there seems to have been a relatively amicable split between the Czech Republic and Slovakia.
But what were the resemblences between the violent post-Tito collapse and the peaceful uncouplimg of Czechoslovakia?
It should be added that the European Union did not handle themselves in glory during the collapse of Yugoslavia. This might well be a problem if in 2014 and beyond, the EU is not necessarily as even-handed as one would like, concerning negotiations between Russia and Ukraine.

And as for 1914, and the continued guarrantee for Belgium between the UK and Prussia... Really? Britain and Germany were on the other side! Germany invaded Belgium.

[Roger de Coverly]

I am baffled as to what Roger is trying to srgue.

That there are many recent precedents for the creation of new countries, but none for the transfer of autonomous areas from one country to another. The nearest perhaps are Hong Kong and Macau.

[Paul McKeown]

Excellent reply by Paul on the random comments by the "armchair arbiter".

Thanks, Colin. I reckon I can't be far wrong in my thinking on this, if a learned doctor of history agrees with my analysis.

One report which seems to have been overlooked by the British press is Onrust Krim slaat over op rest Oekraïne.

De demonstranten zouden met bussen de grens zijn overgestoken en bestormden vervolgens het gebouw van de regionale regering.

The demonstrators apparently crossed the frontier in buses and then stormed the building of the regional government.

Luhansk's frontier is with Russia...

And as for that young innocent, Holowczak, who is minded to accept the version of news presented by RT, the following news item made me chuckle:

'Horloges op Moskou-tijd, dit was een Russische actie'.

The "concerned citizens" securing the Crimea forgot to change their watches from Moscow time. Bit of a give away boys!

[Alex Holowczak]

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Forgive me, but that's naive. And naively to believe it is exactly what was hoped of you, as you will shrug you shoulders and think it isn't a problem that should bother you.

My Grandfather was born in Soviet Ukraine, and his family's descendants still live there. It is an issue that bothers me greatly.

[Paul McKeown]

Alex, naturally I wish your grandfather's relatives the best of fortune, in this dreadful situation. I was aware of your descent. Being aware of your descent makes it therefore more surprising for me that you could be so impressionable that you might be susceptible to a Soviet style campaign of black propaganda.

[Peter D Williams]

Afternoon all

This is very intersting
Former chief of Ukraine’s Security Service has confirmed allegations that snipers who killed dozens of people during the violent unrest in Kiev operated from a building controlled by the opposition on Maidan square
Read it in full at this link http://rt.com/news/ukraine-snipers-security-chief-438/

I do hope your all enjoying the sunshine today.

[Paul McKeown]

Uncritical idiocy from Peter the Dull Dietitian.

[John McKenna]

Paul, simple food grown and prepared at home was the fare of Cato the Elder.
A banquet of many an Emperor, such as Diocletian, would have had a menu like this -

Appetizers

Jellyfish and eggs
Sow’s udders stuffed with salted sea urchins
Patina of brains cooked with milk and eggs
Boiled tree fungi with peppered fish-fat sauce
Sea urchins with spices, honey, oil, and egg sauce

Main Courses

Fallow deer roasted with onion sauce, rue, Jericho dates, raisins, oil, and honey
Boiled ostrich with sweet sauce
Turtle dove boiled in its feathers
Roast parrot
Dormice stuffed with pork and pine kernels
Ham boiled with figs and bay leaves, rubbed with honey, baked in pastry crust
Flamingo boiled with dates

Desserts

Fricassee of roses with pastry
Stoned dates stuffed with nuts and pine kernels, fried in honey
Hot African sweet-wine cakes with honey

with or without additives - one never really knew except it was already too late.
Which would you prefer - the plain and simple or the delicious and dangerous?

As for the current affair coverage, well, Peter said it was interesting (at least that's what I take 'intersting' to be code for) that is critical. Just like putting '!?' after a chess move. We all know that should be followed by analysis but simply pointing out what the other side is reporting does not mean that one simply agrees with it. Your simple post about "an admirable politician" in another thread did not include any analysis. You seemed happy just to let it stand and speak for itself. I do see a considerable difference between the two topics - although both of them are rooted in politics - but the approach is similar.

Edit: I see that Paul is already engaged in hot debate elsewhere on the forum.

[Paul McKeown]

I have been perplexed at the readiness of several to believe the nonsense regarding the snipers at the Maidan being Ukrainian right-wing provocateurs. Of course, I shouldn't have been. There is a certain mindset that believes in every conspiracy theory that they are presented with, regardless of the application of Occam's razor.

But the truth is that this story is rubbish. The quite heroic doctor of the Maidan, Olga Bogomolets, who was supposed to have been the source of this rumour, was quite adamant from the start, that words had been put into her mouth which were entirely untrue.

Here's a link to the Telegraph's Ukraine blog for March the 5th: read from 15:17. Of course, this is widely documented elsewhere. German newspapers were reporting Bogomolets's story from the same day that the conversation between Urmas Paet and Cathy Ashton was published on Youtube.

British papers are finally examining the veracity of Russian claims of Ukrainian nationalist provocations. For instance this and this from the Guardian today. You would have thought they might have been a little quicker of the mark with a critical examination of self-interested official Russian claims.

None of this will convince a committed crackpot, naturally.

[John McKenna]

Paul, for you everything is so black & white - beard & skin to your razor.
Have you never cut yourself shaving and seen red?

Pointing out what the other side is saying about events is not necessarily a crackpot's deed.
The 'truth' of what is really happening is beyond human ken.

No one has a completely convincing answer.
Not even you.

[Paul McKeown]

Pointing out what the other side is saying about events is not necessarily a crackpot's deed.

That's a question of application and context. In the threads here it has been credulous and uncritical googling by the simple minded, devoid of historical context.

No one has a completely convincing answer.

The smallest crack is all a crackpot needs, of course.

Not even you.

I'm not that foolish to believe I do. But I loathe fascism and rail against the comfortable idiocy of those who would echo Nelson's claim to to see no ships, or who would respond to criticisms of Moscovian fascism with whataboutery. The sad truth is that Soviet Communism has been replaced not by democracy, but authoritarian nationalism with a hankering for the return of empire.

[John McKenna]

You can plainly see the problem we have communicating, Paul.

I asked you one question and you replied to three statements.

Let me know how it looks in the mirror later this morning, please.

I bet it's black, white, grey and a possible small scarlet gash or two.

[Paul McKeown]

Or possibly, you still couldn't see the wood for the trees were you flying above the Amazon?

[John McKenna]

Possibly not, Paul, since neither woods nor trees will still exist there in any appreciable quantity if I wait too long. Who you gonna blame for that? The producers or the consumers?