Ukraine

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
Arshad Ali
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Arshad Ali » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:39 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:
Arshad Ali wrote:Do Mexico and Canada have their own economic and foreign policies?
Yes, clearly.
Arshad Ali wrote:For that matter, does Britain have its own foreign and military policy or is it a very junior partner in Pax Americana?
Yes, again clearly.
Arshad Ali wrote:This is realpolitik I'm talking about.
Inserts Babelfish... what Russia wants, its neighbours must give, know your place
You're bonkers.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Arshad Ali wrote: You're bonkers.
If he's bonkers, so is the rest of UK public opinion. We've seen what appeared to be a friendly Russia, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, turn nasty.

Arshad Ali
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Arshad Ali » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:27 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Arshad Ali wrote: You're bonkers.
If he's bonkers, so is the rest of UK public opinion. We've seen what appeared to be a friendly Russia, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, turn nasty.
Well, I'm with Paul Craig Roberts on this:

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/09 ... g-roberts/
Official statements from the Russian government indicate that the president and foreign minister continue to rely on the good will of “our Western partners” to work out a reasonable diplomatic solution to the trouble in Ukraine caused by Washington. Not only is there no evidence of this good will in Western capitals, the hostile measures against Russia are increasing. Moreover, hostile measures are on the rise even though their main effect is to disadvantage Europe.

John McKenna

Re: Ukraine

Post by John McKenna » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:45 pm

"Hehe, he'll be telling you to get your head out of the arse of Alex Salmond..."

Don't I at least get an equal opportunity choice - Alex's or Nicola's?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:10 pm

I was going to say that the emergence or re-emergence of authoritarian government in Russia had driven a former world chess champion into exile, but then the same applied to the USA, not that RJF had ever tried to form a political party or run for President.

John McKenna

Re: Ukraine

Post by John McKenna » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:38 pm

Like Garry, Bobby was arrested and spent time in the jailhouse -

http://anusha.com/pasadena.htm

The U.S. of A. also has its authoritarians.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:04 am

John McKenna wrote:Like Garry, Bobby was arrested and spent time in the jailhouse -

http://anusha.com/pasadena.htm

The U.S. of A. also has its authoritarians.
Absolutely. Happily, I'm not old enough to remember McCarthyism, which was an extreme expression of authoritarianism in US public life, but even today, one need only think of the Patriot Act, for example. And such things apply also to the United Kingdom, and in some degree even to the most open, transparent, liberal democracies. The danger in mentioning such appalling lapses by democracies, is that of creating false equivalences with the grevious crimes against liberty of genuinely authoritarian states and despotisms. And one is then a long way along the path towards useful idiocy.

Regarding the whimsical views expressed by our Transatlantic Tankie, concerning Scottish independence, I think it is fair to say that most English people feel that it is important that the Scots decide for themselves, but that they would faintly regret the parting should it come to that. There are some who hearken for the "glories of Empire", but they are a minority, as are those who express a hatred for the Jocks or claim that they are merely a drain on the public purse. I don't hear anyone calling on an armoured division to be sent north to pacify the rebellious.

The sentiment expressed in the linked article was that of a comeuppance for the British state impatiently awaited. It's not a sentiment that I share, although there is much about the British state that I would gladly change. Nor is it a sentiment that most of those who may vote for independence will share either. The "Yes" vote will mainly be for a bright future, and should they win, I think those remaining in the United Kingdom will wish that bright future to the reborn Scottish kingdom. I don't think the "Yes" camp will win, though, despite the recent media storm, the media needs a story to sell. I might be wrong, we'll see.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:29 am

Paul McKeown wrote: I don't hear anyone calling on an armoured division to be sent north to pacify the rebellious.
1745 perhaps
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.

Another verse begs Wade to ‘confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks...’ This verse was rewritten to cover all enemies of Great Britain.
History is written by the winners. The Dutch invasion of 1688 is portrayed as a Glorious Revolution. Reminiscent a bit on recent events in Ukraine. The King fled and was deemed to have abdicated. Had the invasion failed it would have been portrayed as traitorous Members of Parliament supporting a Foreign power.

Little thanks to the Americans, but arguably the Soviet Union was seen off by Western or perhaps British decadence. Even Putin confesses to being a fan of Western Rock and Pop music.

Alistair Campbell
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Alistair Campbell » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:47 am

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.
Was this ever really a part of the National Anthem, or was it just a piece of 18th century music-hall japery, rather like the way in which nowadays the lyrics of popular songs are adapted or rewritten in hilarious fashion to make fun of political or sporting figures of the wrong persuasion?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Ukraine

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:49 am

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.
Was this ever really a part of the National Anthem, or was it just a piece of 18th century music-hall japery, rather like the way in which nowadays the lyrics of popular songs are adapted or rewritten in hilarious fashion to make fun of political or sporting figures of the wrong persuasion?
The latter. They stopped being sung as part of the song long before it actually became the official national anthem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_ ... nal_verses

John McKenna

Re: Ukraine

Post by John McKenna » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:52 am

Jack, I think you and Alistair are letting the Wade verse off on a technicality -

It gets better...

He was replaced as Commander-in Chief by Prince William, Duke of Cumberland who literally destroyed the Stuart forces at the Battle of Culloden in 1746 by ordering his troops to show no quarter to any surviving Jacobite rebels.

In the same year Handel wrote the oratorio Judas Maccabaeus to celebrate the victory and compliment the Duke on his return from Scotland.

Perhaps the chorus will be sung when Darling returns to London if he also wins -

See, the conqu'ring hero comes!
Sound the trumpets, beat the drums.
Sports prepare, the laurel bring,
Songs of triumph to him sing.
Last edited by John McKenna on Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Arshad Ali
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Arshad Ali » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:58 pm

Insightful essay by Philip Giraldi yesterday:
That the United States’ intention to confront Russia over Ukraine, a place where it has no real interests, borders on the incomprehensible has been clearly demonstrated by both Scott McConnell and Daniel Larison. University of Chicago Professor John Mearsheimer has also described in some detail how the dangerous confrontation is largely the fault of Washington and its European allies, most notably because of the thoughtless expansion of NATO that genuinely threatened Russia. Former Polish President Lech Walesa, whose county would be the front line in any armed conflict, has warned that arming Ukraine might reignite the cold war and possibly even lead to a nuclear exchange.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... eve-obama/

Alistair Campbell
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Alistair Campbell » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Arshad Ali wrote: The LRB has good recent article on this:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/lrb-scotla ... referendum
Tariq Ali is of course entitled to his opinion. However, I'm not convinced we need another Englishman* coming north to tell us how to run our own affairs; particularly one who seems intent on treating us as a colony for the purpose of furthering his own political ends, whilst he is happily ensconced in the comfort of Highgate.

*as he is for referendum purposes
Paul McKeown wrote: Regarding the whimsical views expressed by our Transatlantic Tankie, concerning Scottish independence, I think it is fair to say that most English people feel that it is important that the Scots decide for themselves, but that they would faintly regret the parting should it come to that. There are some who hearken for the "glories of Empire", but they are a minority, as are those who express a hatred for the Jocks or claim that they are merely a drain on the public purse. I don't hear anyone calling on an armoured division to be sent north to pacify the rebellious.

The sentiment expressed in the linked article was that of a comeuppance for the British state impatiently awaited. It's not a sentiment that I share, although there is much about the British state that I would gladly change. Nor is it a sentiment that most of those who may vote for independence will share either. The "Yes" vote will mainly be for a bright future, and should they win, I think those remaining in the United Kingdom will wish that bright future to the reborn Scottish kingdom. I don't think the "Yes" camp will win, though, despite the recent media storm, the media needs a story to sell. I might be wrong, we'll see.
An interesting perspective. Here, a picture is being painted of an England desperate to hang on to its oil revenues, and of a UK that is going down the cludgie. Perhaps I am listening to the wrong people.
John McKenna wrote: It gets better...
It does? I'm afraid you've lost me here.

Paul McKeown
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Paul McKeown » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:05 am

Alistair Campbell wrote:An interesting perspective. Here, a picture is being painted of an England desperate to hang on to its oil revenues, and of a UK that is going down the cludgie. Perhaps I am listening to the wrong people.
Alistair, just to be clear, I'm not English, but resident in London & the South East for quite a long time, since 1997. I'm originally from Northern Ireland, but I wrote of English attitudes I hear here from English mouths, in response to Arshad A.'s musings concerning "colonial" attitudes.

My personal view is that Scotland will be fine either way, but that Scotland has a lot to offer within the United Kingdom that the rest of us should be grateful for. Loss of Scotland from the UK, would, of course, lead to a crisis of confidence in Ulster's Unionist community, and that is something I do rather fear, the peace is embedded, but deeply enough to survive such a shock? No one can know for certain.

NickFaulks
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:07 am

Paul McKeown wrote:
I think it is fair to say that most English people feel that it is important that the Scots decide for themselves
I'm not sure that's true. After years of control by Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling ( from whose strictures the Scots themselves were at least partially exempt ) many English people feel that they have the right to express a view on whether they wish to be independent of Scotland. They realise they will never get it, any more than they will in relation to the EU, but that's another story.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

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