ICL Pathway (Fujitsu) Curiosity

[IM Jack Rudd]

I once met someone who had an interesting take on this, along the lines of "the government tries to outsource activities which it is not very good at, which is a perfectly reasonable strategy in itself; unfortunately, the things this government is not very good at include procurement and outsourcing".

[Ian Thompson]

I think a poor system specification/ software design is too blame.

Quite likely. It reminds me of an incident with the Surrey Border League bank account a few years ago.

A league official who was an authorised user of the league's account went in to a branch to make a cash withdrawal from his personal account with the bank using his debit card. The money was incorrectly debited from the league's account instead of his personal account. Presumably down to human error, but how could a system be designed to let it happen - the league's account required 2 people to authorise transactions and he did this on his own; the league's account didn't have a debit card associated with it.

[John Upham]

Fairly explosive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67884743

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Another article here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67956962

In one emotional scene, a panic-stricken Jo begins trying to balance the books after a long day. The Horizon software shows losses doubling in front of her eyes, yet her concerns are dismissed by a helpline operator.

The pressure needs to be kept on to get (proper) compensation paid out.

A cautionary point made here:

Do you really think ministers will get justice for Post Office victims? Ask the Windrush families and think again (Amelia Gentleman writing in The Guardian)

Awful failures of government and of systems. It sounds trite to say it, but lessons really have to be learned.

[Kevin Thurlow]

"I once met someone who had an interesting take on this, along the lines of "the government tries to outsource activities which it is not very good at, which is a perfectly reasonable strategy in itself; unfortunately, the things this government is not very good at include procurement and outsourcing"."

That applies to all governments (or companies, for that matter) - if they are not good at something, they don't know if the people they recruit are any good also...

This guy is good...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDc2NRoQOM4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQzrB3kuqck

[Angus French]

A cautionary point made here:

Do you really think ministers will get justice for Post Office victims? Ask the Windrush families and think again (Amelia Gentleman writing in The Guardian)

If I recall, Amelia Gentleman did a great job exposing the awful treatment of the Windrush generation.

[Angus French]

"I once met someone who had an interesting take on this, along the lines of "the government tries to outsource activities which it is not very good at, which is a perfectly reasonable strategy in itself; unfortunately, the things this government is not very good at include procurement and outsourcing"."

That applies to all governments (or companies, for that matter) - if they are not good at something, they don't know if the people they recruit are any good also...

The major selling point for outsourcing is that you appoint an outside organisation with the expertise and resources you don't have. I suspect, though (from my experience in IT), that it's often better to do things in-house, if necessary through employment of staff with suitable expertise or training of existing staff. One organisation I worked for which outsourced also, at the same time, took a stake in a company it outsourced to. But that project ended in dismal failure. From what I've seen, outsourcing organisations often get screwed when projects don't work out and when new things are needed which weren't anticipated in the first place... One time, though, I was assigned to a major project for a Government department and the company I worked for didn't deliver and were absolutely nailed down with the invocation of compensation clauses. My employer then compounded their error by taking on new sub projects to try to recoup their losses but were reliant on already badly-overworked staff.

Another thing: while the organisations which are outsourced to have expertise, I've seen that sometimes they don't organise themselves well and they think that staff can be switched in and out of a project at no cost (in terms of getting up to speed with what they're asked to do) and sometimes they subcontract (which can be expensive). From what I saw there was an over-reliance on people who didn't really have a vested interest in the success of project - a situation which I think would be different if projects were carried out in-house.

[Matt Mackenzie]

A cautionary point made here:

Do you really think ministers will get justice for Post Office victims? Ask the Windrush families and think again (Amelia Gentleman writing in The Guardian)

If I recall, Amelia Gentleman did a great job exposing the awful treatment of the Windrush generation.

Still hard to quite believe who she is actually married to.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

From this article:

Fujitsu will never be held accountable for the Post Office scandal. It is too important to this government

The reality is that Fujitsu doesn’t need to make products that work well. It doesn’t need to be honest about its failures. Until they were found out, Fujitsu, the Post Office, and even ministers were happy to let sub-postmasters pay the price for Fujitsu to keep making profits from the public purse. When you have Fujitsu’s access and influence, real accountability is for other people.

Frightening. How do we know the next miscarriage of justice is not already brewing or has happened?

[John Clarke]

How do we know the next miscarriage of justice is not already brewing or has happened?

Of course it is/has. It's in the DNA of modern-day business culture and those who operate within it. No commitment to providing quality goods or services. Swan into a job, grab your bonuses, loot your expense accounts, swan out again before your errors (or even depredations) come to light, add another "shining success" to the old CV, maybe even a gong or title, and off to the next trough.

And don't imagine it's a recent phenomenon. Quote from J B Priestley's Bright Day (published 1946, part-set in 1912-14):

"But these smart chaps who know nowt but 'ow to make money fast, they 'ave no customers, they're 'ere today an' gone tomorrow, and only thing they've a respect for is money. An' Ah tell you, lad, they're no good to themselves nor nobody else."

[Roger de Coverly]

I came across this recently.

Someone in his day job.

https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/4516757