Othello
-
- Posts: 3738
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
- Location: Hayes (Middx)
Othello
A rival board game, Othello has been solved, meaning that the solution has been given demonstrating perfect play from any legal position, including the initial array. A draw! 10^28 positions; 10^58 games.
https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.19387
https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.19387
International Arbiter, FIDE Instructor
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
-
- Posts: 5853
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm
Re: Othello
I'm amazed, I'm not that good at the game, but just assumed that the first player had an advantage. The chances of 32-32 seem very small?!
Although... the first player might have to be first to go in a2,b2,b1 or h2, g2, g1 etc, letting the opponent get into a corner and catch up. Just another game I don't understand.
Although... the first player might have to be first to go in a2,b2,b1 or h2, g2, g1 etc, letting the opponent get into a corner and catch up. Just another game I don't understand.
-
- Posts: 5268
- Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
- Location: Millom, Cumbria
Re: Othello
The first player has an advantage in chess, but many still suspect it is "ultimately" a draw?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
-
- Posts: 3275
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:30 pm
Re: Othello
Only with correct play, which humans will forever be incapable of.
-
- Posts: 1954
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:36 pm
Re: Othello
Looks as though we can put out the light on Othello then.
-
- Posts: 3738
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
- Location: Hayes (Middx)
Re: Othello
The authors of the paper speculate that, despite the size of the search space, chess might be the next strategy game to be "weakly solved" (one of three categories of solution), but this will probably require theoretical breakthroughs and improved hardware.
It will be fascinating should that happen, and I hope to live long enough to see it!
My prediction: chess from the initial array is a mutual Zugszwang!
It will be fascinating should that happen, and I hope to live long enough to see it!
My prediction: chess from the initial array is a mutual Zugszwang!
International Arbiter, FIDE Instructor
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
-
- Posts: 3275
- Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:30 pm
Re: Othello
It was recently said by Nakamura that endings with 7 pieces or fewer on the board have already been solved.
-
- Posts: 5853
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm
Re: Othello
"It was recently said by Nakamura that endings with 7 pieces or fewer on the board have already been solved."
In Correspondence Chess, you can claim a result if the tablebases used by ICCF agree with you.
In Correspondence Chess, you can claim a result if the tablebases used by ICCF agree with you.
-
- Posts: 3576
- Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
- Location: Awbridge, Hampshire
Re: Othello
There's nothing new about that. Most 7 piece endings were solved by 2012 and all by 2018, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase. There's a discussion, from 2021, of work in progress on 8 piece endings here - https://www.chess.com/blog/Rocky64/eigh ... me-results.MJMcCready wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:02 amIt was recently said by Nakamura that endings with 7 pieces or fewer on the board have already been solved.
-
- Posts: 21353
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm
Re: Othello
The join would be if "forced" opening and middle game play could reach a solved 7 or 8 piece ending. But that may just demonstrate opening lines to be avoided if looking to win rather like the forced repetitions available here and there for players seeking not to win.Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 9:15 amThere's a discussion, from 2021, of work in progress on 8 piece endings here -
-
- Posts: 3738
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
- Location: Hayes (Middx)
Re: Othello
Nakamura must be rather behind the curve, in that case. Moscow State University published the first complete set of 7 piece endgames in 2012, calculated and stored on its Lomonosov departmental supercomputer (140 MB). 7 piece tablebases have been available for download in Syzygy format (18.4 TB) since 2018, usable on your PC at home with your favourite chess engine.MJMcCready wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 5:02 amIt was recently said by Nakamura that endings with 7 pieces or fewer on the board have already been solved.
There have been quite a number of papers published concerning results from 8 piece tablebases in the intervening years, and there is an expectation that 8 piece tablebases will be complete in a few years time.
International Arbiter, FIDE Instructor
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
-
- Posts: 8843
- Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
- Location: London
Re: Othello
From Ian's link above:
https://www.chess.com/blog/Rocky64/eigh ... me-results
I just played through the "Tablebase position: 8-piece length record | White wins in 400 moves" position (a rather artificial material balance of White with 2 rooks and a knight against Black's rook and 2 bishops of the same colour). It was the usual completely incomprehensible dancing around the board until eventually a winning position was 'forced' (though I have never been able to describe or comprehend why certain sequences in this hundreds-of-moves-long mates are forced).
The article puts it better: "The solution, as is usual in such tablebase discoveries, defies human understanding and engine analysis."
Paul predicted above that chess is a mutual Zugzwang.
In the article Ian linked above:
8-man tablebase position: mutual zugzwang (Black to play: White wins; White to play: Black wins).
Credit for the above should go to: Marc Bourzutschky.
https://www.chess.com/blog/Rocky64/eigh ... me-results
I just played through the "Tablebase position: 8-piece length record | White wins in 400 moves" position (a rather artificial material balance of White with 2 rooks and a knight against Black's rook and 2 bishops of the same colour). It was the usual completely incomprehensible dancing around the board until eventually a winning position was 'forced' (though I have never been able to describe or comprehend why certain sequences in this hundreds-of-moves-long mates are forced).
The article puts it better: "The solution, as is usual in such tablebase discoveries, defies human understanding and engine analysis."
Paul predicted above that chess is a mutual Zugzwang.
In the article Ian linked above:
One highlight among the mutual zugzwang arrangements is shown above. It’s a full-point MZ, a particularly curious type of situation where having the turn would be a fatal disadvantage for either side. The material is nicely balanced and happens to be the strongest possible without promoted units. Moreover, the brisk play is human comprehensible, and even that weakling known as Stockfish can solve it!
8-man tablebase position: mutual zugzwang (Black to play: White wins; White to play: Black wins).
Credit for the above should go to: Marc Bourzutschky.
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 3738
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
- Location: Hayes (Middx)
Re: Othello
I think this exactly what the authors of the Othello are speculating. Perhaps a future 9 or 10 piece tablebase meeting Stockfish or whatever searching from the initial array. It you switch on a modern engine with tablebase access, it is extraordinary how early the tablebases begin to be accessed. Essentially the engines are doing extraordinarily deep searches, presumably by radical (but successful) tree pruning, focusing on the most promising lines for deep searches.Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 12:55 pmThe join would be if "forced" opening and middle game play could reach a solved 7 or 8 piece ending. But that may just demonstrate opening lines to be avoided if looking to win rather like the forced repetitions available here and there for players seeking not to win.Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 9:15 amThere's a discussion, from 2021, of work in progress on 8 piece endings here -
International Arbiter, FIDE Instructor
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
-
- Posts: 3738
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:01 pm
- Location: Hayes (Middx)
Re: Othello
Nice one, Chris.Christopher Kreuzer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:27 pm8-man tablebase position: mutual zugzwang (Black to play: White wins; White to play: Black wins).
Credit for the above should go to: Marc Bourzutschky.
International Arbiter, FIDE Instructor
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
Richmond Junior Chess Club
Fulham Junior Chess Club
ECF Games Played Abroad Administrator
-
- Posts: 743
- Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:10 pm
Re: Othello
Neil Graham wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:54 pmLooks as though we can put out the light on Othello then.