English Chess Forum

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:45 pm

Old guys being performatively and belligerently ignorant about black music, very good look, a credit to our community

Given that I recall Richard as a junior, I think he is somewhat younger than Justin.

Assuming the years of birth on the FIDE rating site are correct it's 1982 v 1965

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:30 pm

. However, I do agree with his conclusion that grime music might seem to make the listener more likely to run around London stabbing people

Riduculous nonsense Nick, you can do better than that. What on earth is "might seem" here? What's our evidential basis?

But let us start from the point that Murray goes out id his way to be as offensive as he can about grime, and there's a reason why he does that, and it's that Murray is a professional racist.

David Sedgwick wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:24 am

it would also be a good idea if an exchange of views about what types of music people like were not highjacked by one particular poster who seems to delight in making accusations of racism and misogyny at every conceivable opportunity.

And I'll tell you what David, I'll keep doing it for as long as senior figures in English chess are the kind of people whose commitment in these areas consists of humbug and shrieking hysteria every time the subjects come up.

(If English chess actually have a damn about misogyny there's a couple of leading figures who would be absolutelty persona non grata. But you don't have a problem with them, do you?)

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:54 am

Given that I recall Richard as a junior, I think he is somewhat younger than Justin.

Assuming the years of birth on the FIDE rating site are correct it's 1982 v 1965

Now that is a fair correction

.

Oh dear. Maybe Justin could start a blog or something.

Now there's a thought, particularly given that one of my first experiences in this field was the deeply embarrassing business when the ECF oppressed us all by renaming the British Ladies Championship.

Justin's posts may be seen by some as overzealous, but in my view that is far less a failing than complacency. If we want to discuss other cultures we could at least seek a reasonable level of understanding, before making dismissive and pejorative remarks. If the interventions only cause people to reflect on their choice of language that seems a fair outcome. I don't think many of us would be comfortable with chess becoming a refuge for backward thinking, especially at a time when other parts of the sporting world are reflecting with more vigour to changing attitudes in society.

Nor is it fair to dismiss Justin as a rabid outlier. There will be those reading and agreeing without posting. Not everybody wants to engage in a debate where people are told to 'give it a rest'.

J T Melsom wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:22 am

Not everybody wants to engage in a debate where people are told to 'give it a rest'.

Anyone who makes the same point fifty times should expect that, and I've always found Justin able to give at least as good as he gets.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:02 am

Anyone who makes the same point fifty times should expect that, and I've always found Justin able to give at least as good as he gets.

Quite so, Nick.

J T Melsom wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:22 am

Not everybody wants to engage in a debate where people are told to 'give it a rest'.

And not everyone wants to engage in a debate where people are accused of being racist for expressing their opinions about particular kinds of music.

On another thread, people have been asked who are their favourite cricketers. I won't be responding. If I and others choose white cricketers, then I know what to expect.

However, when I do have something to say, then I shall say it.

David Sedgwick wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:23 am

If I and others choose white cricketers, then I know what to expect.

"I cannot tell the difference between liking white cricketers and being ignorant about black music, and I will say so loudly."

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:25 am

"I cannot tell the difference between liking white cricketers and being ignorant about black music, and I will say so loudly."

So liking white cricketers is not racist, but being ignorant about black music is?

I give up.

I now need to go and give practical help to a black chess player.

I've not seen an explicit accusation of racism. I have seen comments which are pejorative about certain musical forms practiced by black musicians which have gone beyond those applied to other musical forms. 'Rap is crap' is - wordplay aside - distinct in tone and possibly intent to 'I dislike opera'.
This may not be a problem for some, but Justin is right to point out that these attitudes can be problematic, and indicative/symptomatic of wider problems in society.

I am reliably informed that a popular beat combo entitled The Chessmen were active from 1964 until 1968.

Their genre was reputedly "garage" whatever that means.

Personnel included :

Robert Patton
Ron DiIulio
Tommy Carter
Tommy Carrigan
Jimmy Kay Herbert
Ricky Marshall
Richard Dace
Johnny Peebles
Doyle Bramhall
Jimmie Vaughan

J T Melsom wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:35 am

I've not seen an explicit accusation of racism. I have seen comments which are pejorative about certain musical forms practiced by black musicians which have gone beyond those applied to other musical forms. 'Rap is crap' is - wordplay aside - distinct in tone and possibly intent to 'I dislike opera'.
This may not be a problem for some, but Justin is right to point out that these attitudes can be problematic, and indicative/symptomatic of wider problems in society.

Thank you for making the same point as Justin, but in more measured terms.

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:10 am

Now there's a thought, particularly given that one of my first experiences in this field was the deeply embarrassing business when the ECF oppressed us all by renaming the British Ladies Championship.

references

"Ladies is old-fashioned and outmoded, and for a reason: it's the equivalent, not of Men but of Gentlemen, a term which nobody would think of using, in contemporary sport, in its capitalised form."

and yet

https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/draws_a ... pions.html

would appear to buck the trend.

John Upham wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:51 am

I am reliably informed that a popular beat combo entitled The Chessmen were active from 1964 until 1968.

There was also Tony Knight's Chessmen, who were active around the same time. Their sound was more jazz-influenced, with saxes and organ featuring prominently. Personnel included well-known jazzer Lol Coxhill.