COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

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J T Melsom
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:37 pm

The UK is better precisely because people have rights denied to them in Iran - rights which are rather more fundamental than being able to play chess. Those restrictions pre-date the pandemic and will continue when the pandemic is over.
Last edited by J T Melsom on Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John Moore
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by John Moore » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:59 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:57 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:29 pm
His dismissal of the present PM with a single four letter expletive is entertaining, though.
Hardly original, not worth buying the book for. The truth is that Alan Duncan was never going to be of any signifcance and he is the only person who cannot see why that was. Perhaps Clark wasn't either, but he had a keener eye for the reasons.

Back to the main topic, other countries such as Iran have apparently handled their vaccination programs poorly and their people are allowed to play chess. We have handled ours in brilliant world-beating fashion ( in fact we have now reached the point previously defined as herd immunity ) and we're not allowed do a darned thing.

Why would I not prefer to live in a country whose vaccination program has failed? Or is it that other governments, such as the Iranians', are by nature less repressive than ours.
Nick, your last sentence is nonsense, isn't it - or do you want me to quote Amnesty International on Iran.

NickFaulks
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:47 pm

John Moore wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:59 pm
Nick, your last sentence is nonsense, isn't it - or do you want me to quote Amnesty International on Iran.
I do not doubt that the Iranian government is unpleasant in many respects, but they are at least allowing their people to play chess. Our Government does not even permit that.

The Iranian govenment is criticised for trying to prevent its people from leaving the country. In the UK, there is a £5,000 fine for being caught trying to escape. Juat saying.
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John Moore
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by John Moore » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:14 pm

Nick - "allowing their people to play chess". But:-

"The authorities heavily suppressed the rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly. Security forces used unlawful force to crush protests. The authorities continued to arbitrarily detain hundreds of protesters, dissidents and human rights defenders, and sentenced many to imprisonment and flogging. Women, as well as ethnic and religious minorities, faced entrenched discrimination as well as violence. Enforced disappearances, torture and other ill-treatment were committed with impunity on a widespread and systematic basis. Judicial corporal punishments amounting to torture, including floggings and amputations, were imposed. Fair trial rights were systematically violated. The death penalty was used as a weapon of political repression. Executions were carried out, one in public and some others in secret. Those executed included people aged under 18 at the time of the crime. The authorities continued to commit crimes against humanity by systematically concealing the fate and whereabouts of several thousand political dissidents forcibly disappeared and extrajudicially executed in secret in 1988. Mass graves believed to contain their remains were subject to ongoing destruction."

I can put up with not playing chess if it means not living somewhere like that. The quote is from Amnesty International's report on Iran from 2020.

John Moore
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by John Moore » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm

And the Iranian Government is less repressive than ours. Really, there is a good deal of nonsense spouted on this forum but this is the most ridiculous I can recall.

NickFaulks
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:33 pm

John Moore wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
And the Iranian Government is less repressive than ours.
As you are obviously aware, I never said that. I asked why Iranian citizens are allowed to play chess and we aren't. If you had an answer I assume you would have supplied it.
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J T Melsom
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by J T Melsom » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:49 pm

Nick Faulks wrote; 'Why would I not prefer to live in a country whose vaccination program has failed? Or is it that other governments, such as the Iranians', are by nature less repressive than ours.'

John Moore has cited evidence that the Iranians are more repressive.

NickFaulks
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:02 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:49 pm
Nick Faulks wrote; 'Why would I not prefer to live in a country whose vaccination program has failed? Or is it that other governments, such as the Iranians', are by nature less repressive than ours.'

John Moore has cited evidence that the Iranians are more repressive.
Then there must be another reason. What is it?
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David Sedgwick
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:02 pm
J T Melsom wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:49 pm
Nick Faulks wrote; 'Why would I not prefer to live in a country whose vaccination program has failed? Or is it that other governments, such as the Iranians', are by nature less repressive than ours.'

John Moore has cited evidence that the Iranians are more repressive.
Then there must be another reason. What is it?

Perhaps the British authorities are more concerned than the Iranian authorities about the possibility of a third wave of infections.

I do from time to time learn of things that make me ashamed to be British. That we shall have to wait a few months longer than some countries to resume OTB chess is not one of them.

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Jon Tait
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by Jon Tait » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:39 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:57 pm
Back to the main topic, other countries such as Iran have apparently handled their vaccination programs poorly and their people are allowed to play chess. We have handled ours in brilliant world-beating fashion ( in fact we have now reached the point previously defined as herd immunity ) and we're not allowed do a darned thing.
As to the vaccination, we've been very lucky with that – the fact that vaccines were developed so quickly (relatively anyway) and that the NHS have been able to roll it out so effectively. (I have my second shot in June.) But...

https://science.thewire.in/health/sars- ... in-future/

...if I'm reading the article right, it seems that virus mutation may well defeat mass vaccination. Which means that Zero-COVID (as in New Zealand and Australia) is the only effective solution to the pandemic, and we're nowhere near adopting that. Indeed, we're coming out of lockdown again now. Let's just hope it doesn't lead to a fourth wave and lockdown in November.
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Alan Walton
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:10 am

Zero COVID is an impossible aim; even NZ and Australia haven’t achieved this; they have just minimised the cases by closing all borders

Once they reopen they might have a worse problem because of the lack of immunity

Unless we all want to become hermits accept that this is an endemic disease and get on with life, understand your own risks and take appropriate action

NickFaulks
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:12 am

Jon Tait wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:39 am
again now. Let's just hope it doesn't lead to a fourth wave and lockdown in November.
And then a fifth and then a sixth and then a seventh...

Maybe vaccination won't work as well as we're being told - it wouldn't surprise me at all if we were being lied to about that - but equally I expect they will work to a fair extent. One day we may have to get used to the idea that Covid is just one of those things we deal with, and every winter there will be some deaths among the elderly, many of whom would otherwise have died of something else instead. Have you see the flu death numbers this year?
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Angus French
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by Angus French » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:17 am

Jon Tait wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:39 am
NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:57 pm
Back to the main topic, other countries such as Iran have apparently handled their vaccination programs poorly and their people are allowed to play chess. We have handled ours in brilliant world-beating fashion ( in fact we have now reached the point previously defined as herd immunity ) and we're not allowed do a darned thing.
As to the vaccination, we've been very lucky with that – the fact that vaccines were developed so quickly (relatively anyway) and that the NHS have been able to roll it out so effectively. (I have my second shot in June.) But...

https://science.thewire.in/health/sars- ... in-future/

...if I'm reading the article right, it seems that virus mutation may well defeat mass vaccination. Which means that Zero-COVID (as in New Zealand and Australia) is the only effective solution to the pandemic, and we're nowhere near adopting that. Indeed, we're coming out of lockdown again now. Let's just hope it doesn't lead to a fourth wave and lockdown in November.
That was my reading also (good article). I've also read that initial studies indicate the Pfizer vaccine may provide good protection against the South Africa variant but that the AstraZenica vaccine may be much less effective. See here for a summary of current identified variants and what protections vaccines may provide. The South Africa variant is currently prevalent in a number of countries including France. Only a few days ago Government Minister Grant Schapps was saying that people could start thinking about taking foreign holidays this summer.
Last edited by Angus French on Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

NickFaulks
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:21 am

Alan Walton wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:10 am
Zero COVID is an impossible aim; even NZ and Australia haven’t achieved this; they have just minimised the cases by closing all borders

Once they reopen they might have a worse problem because of the lack of immunity.
Absolutely right. Perhaps they will be wiped out as native South American tribes were by diseases introduced by Europeans against which they had no natural defences. This will be instructive to watch from a safe distance.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

David Sedgwick
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Re: COVid19-What's wrong with UK?

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:22 am

The three sizeable countries with the highest vaccination rates are Israel, Chile and the UK.

See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-lockdown and https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... -countries for two sobering articles about the differing experiences of the other two.

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