ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Discussion about all aspects of the ECF County Championships.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:20 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:37 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:02 am
I think I read that for double vaccinated people
That is the promise. Anything else is equivalent to an admission that vaccines don't work very well.
Not especially to the last. We know how well they work really quite precisely by now, given millions of data points. iirc its Genuinely brilliant vs ending up in hospital - >90% - but more like ~60% for transmission?

The problem right now being that (at current vaccination levels) the cut in transmission still isn't enough to stop it spreading and there's enough unprotected that if it hits 'everyone' it still won't be remotely pleasant.

Nick Burrows
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:31 pm

Meanwhile, as chess players decide whether it's safe to have a drink :roll:

Image

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:39 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:23 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:30 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:25 am
Is this the event where teams can play hybrid i.e. all their players at 1 venue supervised by an arbiter?
Matches can be played as Hybrids, but the standard format is an OTB match.
Thanks David; do your objections apply to Hybrid matches too?

If I have it right, it is 8 boards per team, so including the Arbiter, only 9 people in a room, presumably socially distanced, and not sitting directly opposite someone; it sounds safer than an OTB match

I'm not playing, so I realise my view isn't relevant
Hybrid matches have to comply with the Hybrid section of the ECF Tournament Rules (www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-content/uplo ... l-2021.pdf).

You will see if you look at them that this would not be straightforward.

The answer to your question would depend on whether or not the Rules to which I object would apply in addition to the Hybrid Rules. The latter are in essence silent on Covid-19 precautions, so they could scarcely apply on their own.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:23 pm
If I have it right, it is 8 boards per team, so including the Arbiter, only 9 people in a room, presumably socially distanced, and not sitting directly opposite someone; it sounds safer than an OTB match
The regulations for Hybrid say that you have a Local Chief Arbiter and Local Technical Assistant/Arbiter so an 11% increase on Mick's figure for those in the room.

I've just read the link David provided. It seems to contradict the FIDE regulations in a number of places.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:48 pm

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:41 pm
The regulations for Hybrid say that you have a Local Chief Arbiter and Local Technical Assistant/Arbiter so an 11% increase on Mick's figure for those in the room.
The ECF Regulations, to which I linked above, state that you only need one arbiter.

That wouldn't apply if an event were going to be FIDE rated, of course.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:13 pm

Thanks David for your answer, and to Alex too

I can see that we might end up at 10 if we need someone IT savvy as well as an Arbiter (not saying an Arbiter can't be both, but may be better to have someone else anyway)

Reading the Regulations, it isn't straightforward

Also, if it needs agreement with the opposition, and G Man get drawn against Lancs, then Hybrid is not an option
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:18 pm

"Also, if it needs agreement with the opposition, and G Man get drawn against Lancs, then Hybrid is not an option"

I assume ECF would treat it like Israel vs Random Neighbour and fiddle the draw to avoid it?

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:20 pm

Not if it is regionalised, no
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Tim Spanton
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Tim Spanton » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:25 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:37 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:02 am
I think I read that for double vaccinated people
That is the promise. Anything else is equivalent to an admission that vaccines don't work very well. If arranging a chess match, the respective match captains should between them know their players contact details. That wouldn't include spectators and those acting as unpaid taxi drivers.

The ECF may have to decide whether it on the side of enabling OTB chess to take place, or opposed to it. The longer the list of requirements it imposes on players and potential organisers, particularly ones that are "just in case", the more it becomes a body hostile to chess activity.

At the recent 4NCL Congress, there was no explicit requirement to check in with contact details, whether phone based or otherwise. The 4NCL organisers and the hotel would have these details anyway. Spectators were however banned. I don't know whether this was restrictions on room capacity placed by the hotel or lack of contact detail. Both perhaps. But then that event could have fallen under strict "rule of six" interpretations and been illegal anyway. The hotel was offering buffet food as well, which I think had not been allowed under one of the many sets of lockdown rules.
The difference, surely, is that the 4NCL makes most of its money from people playing chess, while the ECF makes most of its money from people joining it.
For example, I have not played OTB in England since March 2020, so the 4NCL has not made any money from me, but I did renew my ECF membership last August, so the ECF has.

Tim Spanton
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:35 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:25 am
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:37 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:02 am
I think I read that for double vaccinated people
That is the promise. Anything else is equivalent to an admission that vaccines don't work very well. If arranging a chess match, the respective match captains should between them know their players contact details. That wouldn't include spectators and those acting as unpaid taxi drivers.

The ECF may have to decide whether it on the side of enabling OTB chess to take place, or opposed to it. The longer the list of requirements it imposes on players and potential organisers, particularly ones that are "just in case", the more it becomes a body hostile to chess activity.

At the recent 4NCL Congress, there was no explicit requirement to check in with contact details, whether phone based or otherwise. The 4NCL organisers and the hotel would have these details anyway. Spectators were however banned. I don't know whether this was restrictions on room capacity placed by the hotel or lack of contact detail. Both perhaps. But then that event could have fallen under strict "rule of six" interpretations and been illegal anyway. The hotel was offering buffet food as well, which I think had not been allowed under one of the many sets of lockdown rules.
The difference, surely, is that the 4NCL makes most of its money from people playing chess, while the ECF makes most of its money from people joining it.
For example, I have not played OTB in England since March 2020, so the 4NCL has not made any money from me, but I did renew my ECF membership last August, so the ECF has.
I have been asked to elaborate.
My point is that, from a financial view, it makes sense for the 4NCL to maximise participation by having as few covid restrictions as possible as the ultra-cautious will probably not return to OTB chess for many months, if at all, whatever protocols are in place.
The ECF, on the other hand, knows that any English people playing tournament chess in England will more-or-less have to join the ECF. From the ECF's financial view, then, it makes sense to recommend as many covid restrictions and protocols as possible in the hope of attracting the ultra-cautious, while knowing those who want to play with as few restrictions as possible will be obliged to join the ECF come-what-may.
In other words, the 4NCL and the ECF should, from a financial view, aim at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:51 pm

Tim Spanton wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:35 pm
My point is that, from a financial view, it makes sense for the 4NCL to maximise participation by having as few covid restrictions as possible as the ultra-cautious will probably not return to OTB chess for many months, if at all, whatever protocols are in place.
It could be added that the 4NCL has commercial partners in Guaranteed Events and the hosting hotels who presumably have an incentive to maximise turnover. I don't know whether all the rooms at the hotel were booked but the event reached its room capacity limit of 130. Presumably with fewer externally imposed restrictions the September event could accept more.

Tim Spanton
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Tim Spanton » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:51 pm
Tim Spanton wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:35 pm
My point is that, from a financial view, it makes sense for the 4NCL to maximise participation by having as few covid restrictions as possible as the ultra-cautious will probably not return to OTB chess for many months, if at all, whatever protocols are in place.
It could be added that the 4NCL has commercial partners in Guaranteed Events and the hosting hotels who presumably have an incentive to maximise turnover. I don't know whether all the rooms at the hotel were booked but the event reached its room capacity limit of 130. Presumably with fewer externally imposed restrictions the September event could accept more.
Presumably, but things still seem to be up in the air, judging by the 4NCL site (my added emphasis):

For your diary
26th 4NCL Fide Rated Congress: Friday 10 - Sunday 12 September, Leamington Spa (Woodland Grange).
3rd Hull 4NCL Fide Rated Congress: Friday 22 - Sunday 24 October, Royal Hotel, Hull.
27th 4NCL Fide Rated Congress: Friday 21 - Sunday 23 January 2022, Old Swan Hotel, Harrogate.
Further information (when we have it) and online entry forms will be available as usual.

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:22 pm

Updated regulations providing for consumption of refreshments away from the Board within the Playing Area and giving flexibility on board orders
F4.3 Players may bring refreshments into the playing area. However these should be consumed with consideration for others including appropriate social distancing from the opponent and other players where the player needs to remove their face covering.
(see Regulation F2).
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:11 pm

"F4.3 Players may bring refreshments into the playing area. However these should be consumed with consideration for others"

In fairness, that should apply whether there's a pandemic or not...

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:29 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:22 pm
Updated regulations providing for consumption of refreshments away from the Board within the Playing Area and giving flexibility on board orders
F4.3 Players may bring refreshments into the playing area. However these should be consumed with consideration for others including appropriate social distancing from the opponent and other players where the player needs to remove their face covering.
(see Regulation F2).
The objections to the Regulations are many and varied, but this change addresses perhaps the most important objection. Credit where credit's due, so thank you ECF.

Thank you also to everyone who has made supportive comments on this thread.

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