44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

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David Sedgwick
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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:49 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:45 pm
I don't know enough about the TPR calculations, but isn't it fair to say David was rested from a position in the standings that would have made the prospect of failing to get a medal fairly unlikely, being ahead of the pack at that stage?
After 8 Rounds England were joint 17th, 21st on tiebreak. A team medal was already a fairly slim prospect.
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:28 pm
Honestly, I'd rather England had finished a very memorable 6th and David had won a Bronze ....
I don't understand how that scenario would have arisen. The one which I feared was that he played, didn't win, lost his Gold medal, and the team still finished 14th.

I don't regard the cricket analogies as valid. Cricket is a team sport. Chess is an individual (mind) sport in which players are formed into teams in some events. In an Olympiad, individual medallists are feted, as we have seen.


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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:12 am

A nice list. I really enjoyed the double Peter commentary too.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:51 am

i accept the individual nature of chess, but many chess players experience competition within a team context, and once you are in a team it is that result that is the most important. Are individual medals really needed at all? What is the reasoning?

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:23 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:51 am
i accept the individual nature of chess, but many chess players experience competition within a team context, and once you are in a team it is that result that is the most important. Are individual medals really needed at all? What is the reasoning?
Much the same as the reasoning behind having special regulations for the award of (W)CM and (W)FM titles at Olympiads. It increases substantially the number of teams which can return home with some form of success to report.

In many countries, perhaps the majority, chess is competing for funding against other sports. It can be very helpful if one of the players has a medal round their neck at the airport when the delegation gets back home.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:49 pm
J T Melsom wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:45 pm
I don't know enough about the TPR calculations, but isn't it fair to say David was rested from a position in the standings that would have made the prospect of failing to get a medal fairly unlikely, being ahead of the pack at that stage?
After 8 Rounds England were joint 17th, 21st on tiebreak. A team medal was already a fairly slim prospect.
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:28 pm
Honestly, I'd rather England had finished a very memorable 6th and David had won a Bronze ....
I don't understand how that scenario would have arisen. The one which I feared was that he played, didn't win, lost his Gold medal, and the team still finished 14th.

I don't regard the cricket analogies as valid. Cricket is a team sport. Chess is an individual (mind) sport in which players are formed into teams in some events. In an Olympiad, individual medallists are feted, as we have seen.
You know a lot more than me about TPR, but David had a big lead in the board medal of over 100 points; I can get resting him for a couple of rounds, but by the time of the final round, wasn't his lead big enough to survive even a loss and win gold?

I see Paul's point, albeit I would say an individual gold was more positive than team 6th; it would depend what were the objectives set for the team by the ECF, or the expectations of any sponsors
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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:39 am

Accept everybody likes to win something, but winning by effectively sitting out much of the competition is a strange thing to grasp. We obviously need to up our game in the best dressed team award as well - we have an abundance of creative talent in this country that could be show-cased.

I am also unclear whether you are disputing Paul Cooksey's view of where the team might have finished and/or my understanding that the risk of David not winning anything was remote given the TPR lead he had. My reference to 'position in the standings at the time David was rested' which you quoted referred to David not the team position, so there may be some misunderstanding here.
Last edited by J T Melsom on Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:44 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am
You know a lot more than me about TPR, but David had a big lead in the board medal of over 100 points; I can get resting him for a couple of rounds, but by the time of the final round, wasn't his lead big enough to survive even a loss and win gold?
Possibly, but to be certain you would have to do calculations based on all the relevant last round pairings which might have occurred.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:17 am

Which I imagine would be easy for, say, Jack to do if he were asked; I could probably knock together a spreadsheet myself with a bit of help

That's what I would have thought a team manager would do TBH

I think there's a useful debate to be had about what the expectations of the team should be, and thus where any ECF money should go (the Seniors and Juniors both may be some ECF members preference)
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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:26 am

Malcolm Pein did post a tweet about this, which hinted (without saying outright) that the Gold would not have been certain if David Howell had played.

I am going to bow out now, once I have replied to other comments. You seem to have plenty of questions for the ECF Council Meeting in October, if you are still a member of Council.
Last edited by David Sedgwick on Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:28 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:46 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:43 am
Also the timing of its making.
Should anyone present know of any reason to believe that this comment was made with any intention other than to stick a bit of needle into a teammate who might have been presumed already to be less than entirely happy. speak now or forever hold your peace.
I don't know of any such reason, but I believe that the comment was tactless rather than malicious.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:33 am

J T Melsom wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:39 am
My reference to 'position in the standings at the time David was rested' which you quoted referred to David not the team position, so there may be some misunderstanding here.
I had misunderstood, but in my response to Mick Norris I have by chance responded to you as well.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:35 am

A loss would have dropped Howell from Field + 444 to Field + 273, which is a big drop - I'd have to check whether other results could have caused him to be overtaken.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:40 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:23 am
Much the same as the reasoning behind having special regulations for the award of (W)CM and (W)FM titles at Olympiads. It increases substantially the number of teams which can return home with some form of success to report.

In many countries, perhaps the majority, chess is competing for funding against other sports. It can be very helpful if one of the players has a medal round their neck at the airport when the delegation gets back home.
That may be true, but the consequence is that it devalues the (W)CM and (W)FM titles if you say that, normally, the title is awarded when someone achieves a rating of X, but Olympiad players can get the title with a rating of X - 200 if they can achieve an Olympiad TPR of X - (about) 600 (based on the actual TPRs of some players who have got conditional titles at this Olympiad).

Couldn't you achieve the same effect of going home with a success to report by having many more special category prizes instead? The opportunities for publicity would probably be better if someone goes home with an actual prize. A conditional title, if they can increase their rating by several hundred points, would probably mean nothing to a non-chess player and need a lot of explaining.

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Re: 44th Olympiad, Chennai 28 July to 10 August 2022

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:15 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:40 am

That may be true, but the consequence is that it devalues the (W)CM and (W)FM titles if you say that, normally, the title is awarded when someone achieves a rating of X, but Olympiad players can get the title with a rating of X - 200 if they can achieve an Olympiad TPR of X - (about) 600 (based on the actual TPRs of some players who have got conditional titles at this Olympiad).

That's a stronger rule than they used to have, which was that you got the title just with a percentage score, no matter how strong or otherwise the opposition.

The theory may have been that it added to local status to have a titled player. However when small country players were effectively guest appearances by those who played most of their chess in amateur pools of larger countries, it just looked ridiculous and aguably devalued the titles, partcularly the CM ones.

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