Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:24 pm

There were many selfies shown in the commentary of fans standing in front of a screen showing the opening phase of the game. So you saw someone standing and smiling and behind them a dull line in the dullest of all openings. It looked rather ironic to me.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:25 pm

You could see the position in the game (which looked rather uninspiring) and then someone smiling away in front of it. If a Sicilian Najdorf had been played, okay I get it but the Petroff? That's dark humour.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:28 pm

But maybe Nepo is only trying to save face, having given up hope of winning the match.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:30 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:28 pm
But maybe Nepo is only trying to save face, having given up hope of winning the match.
I believe so yes.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:42 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:25 pm
If a Sicilian Najdorf had been played, okay I get it but the Petroff? That's dark humour.
You know that there is no such thing as dull openings and exciting openings, yes? That it all depends on the approach of the players?

Here's the same line in the last match. This game is dull, says our authority here
Last edited by JustinHorton on Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:44 pm

Very amusing.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:38 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:16 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:29 pm
MJMcCready wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:23 pm
How can he play the Petroff and try to win at the same time. He must have given up already.
Three down with five to play and having scored 0.5/4 since game 5 including two successive black losses it doesn't seem an unreasonable approach.
I take your point but even Carlsen said he wasn't expecting it. He has to start playing for a win with black at some point. I don't know if you saw the press conference but if you did you may have noticed Nepo was rather evasive in answering certain questions. As it stands he's put in the worst performance by a challenger I have ever seen. Perhaps it is the case that he's lost his confidence and doesn't want to lose more games.
I had been under the impression that he had tried to win in games 2, 6 and 8 albeit with only 0.5/3 to show for it. The score certainly doesn't reflect well on him but around move 30 of game 6 the score was level and he had a way to a clear advantage with black. I certainly don't think that creating winning chances with black have been the problem in the match, if anything it's been with white where he has struggled to show anything apart from fleetingly in games 5 and 9.

I think you probably underestimate how hard it is to face a press conference when you have blundered away two games in a way that probably won't have happened to him very often, certainly not in successive games. In fact, I've heard him praised for the way he has conducted himself in difficult circumstances.

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MJMcCready
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:12 pm

Yes, I've heard that also. I suppose if you've blundered away the game, it isn't easy to talk about it. I don't know enough of him to detect changes but he seems like a rabbit caught in the headlights in certain moments.

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Jon Tait
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Jon Tait » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:17 am

My own take is that Nepo has found a match for the World Championship to be a big step up. Kasparov has said the same about the aborted first match against Karpov (which Karpov described as giving Kasparov a load of free chess lessons). And it's been worse for Nepo because, without the candidates match cycle to go through, he's had no real match experience at all. If he can find the resources to qualify again, I think he'd be a much tougher opponent second time around.
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:43 pm

It does look a lot like that. He doesn't seem like his usual self at all and I do wonder whether the change in style was such a good idea. He is known to play on the front foot but we've hardly seen any of it. Isn't it better to capitalize on your strengths if you can?

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:55 pm

it is always easier to believe in the challenger if he comes to the match as the clear number two in recent years (Caruana) or is at least a frequent candidate known for toughness (karjakin). That Nepo should have had few games against carlsen in recent years despite being the same age was always a worrying contrast. I don't think he will have another turn. Short didn't, Leko didn't, Gelfand won't, time is running out for Caruana and Karjakin. The last people to manage to challenge a second time were Anand, Topalov and Korchnoi. Why would Nepo be likely to join the second group rather than the first?

It is something of an accomplishment just to get the match, after all!

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by MJMcCready » Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:59 pm

Well yes but he's also known to be an attacking player but you wouldn't think that based on what we've seen in the match. He should have played to his strengths more I thought.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:23 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:55 pm
it is always easier to believe in the challenger if he comes to the match as the clear number two in recent years (Caruana)
And isn't Caruana the only one of Carlsen's challengers of whom that's been true? Anand, Karjakin and Nepomniatchchi have all been relative also-rans and while I think anybody would have been second favourite, we can argue that Carlsen has been reasonably fortunate in the challengers he's met. (Of course it's not that simple, and Karjakin in particular really over-performed, but even so, it's striking that it hasn't generally been world number one v world number two.)
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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:42 pm

Jon Tait wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:17 am
My own take is that Nepo has found a match for the World Championship to be a big step up.
Yup.

The course of the match is very similar to Kasparov - Anand 1995. Challenger having a very good start (Anand even 1-0 up briefly) then totally collapsing after the first problematic moment.

1995 ended with half a dozen or so non games. I don’t expect quite the same thing to happen this year - if only because Carlsen will be looking for little tickles where he can. Plus 12-Move draws are now not allowed.

Anand of course went on to twice get a severe bapping from Carlsen 20 years later.

I don’t know that Nepo is going worse than Anand in those matches. Or Kramnik against Anand. Or Short against Kasparov.

Seems to me that he’s getting unduly negative press.

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Re: Carlsen v Nepomniatchi 2021 World Championship

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:05 pm

As you say though, its the suddenness of the collapse that is maybe jarring to some people. Think back to even during game 6 - people were talking (including on here!) about the looming prospect of every classical game being drawn again, and what "should" be done to counter this.

Maybe there is a feeling of slight dissatisfaction that Carlsen hasn't had to play brilliantly to get into this dominant position?
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