English Chess Forum

Bit of a newbie question I know, but proper knowledge of the rules might come in handy for half a point one day.

I don't quite understand when to claim, or when my opponent can claim, under the three fold repetition rule.

Obviously not a game below, but I thought I'd keep it simple to help me with the pgn editor.

Does whites 5...Qd1 below allow black to claim threefold repetition? The position has occured only twice but black is in a position to set it up for the third time. Or is it white who can claim after 5. .... Qd8?

1. e4 e5 2. Qe2 Qe7 3. Qd1 Qd8 4. Qe2 Qe7 5. Qd1 Qd8

I ask because I don't know the answer, but also I've seen a game go on with repetition 5 or 6 times, The players were both quite new and neither probably had the confidence to claim the draw, eventually one offered and the other accepted. After the game I explained to the player who offered that he didn't need to offer, he could insist it was a draw on repetition.

Before black makes his fifth move he can call over the arbiter and inform him he is about to make a move that will lead to threefold repetition and that on this basis he claims a draw. If he makes his fifth and doesn't, white can call over the arbiter and inform him he is about to make a move that will lead to threefold repetition and that he claims a draw on this basis. Neither is bound to do so, of course, and occasionally I see players repeating the position and waiting for the other to claim a draw.

From July 1st, it changes a bit...

incidentally, if you played that sequence of moves, you might both get defaulted! I do realise you were just quoting a simple example.

Arshad Ali wrote:Before black makes his fifth move he can call over the arbiter and inform him he is about to make a move that will lead to threefold repetition and that on this basis he claims a draw.

The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter (if playing in an event with an arbiter present). If the claim is found to be incorrect, the claimer is obliged to play the move written down as part of the claim.

Dewi Jones wrote:Bit of a newbie question I know, but proper knowledge of the rules might come in handy for half a point one day.

True, there are a few situations where following the proper process might save you half a point, however when the time comes, you can always stop and ask an arbiter for the proper things to do.

Sean Hewitt wrote:

Arshad Ali wrote:Before black makes his fifth move he can call over the arbiter and inform him he is about to make a move that will lead to threefold repetition and that on this basis he claims a draw.

The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter (if playing in an event with an arbiter present). If the claim is found to be incorrect, the claimer is obliged to play the move written down as part of the claim.

Now, that is interesting since I thought you were no longer allowed to write down your move before playing it!

Ray Sayers wrote:

Sean Hewitt wrote:

Arshad Ali wrote:Before black makes his fifth move he can call over the arbiter and inform him he is about to make a move that will lead to threefold repetition and that on this basis he claims a draw.

The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter (if playing in an event with an arbiter present). If the claim is found to be incorrect, the claimer is obliged to play the move written down as part of the claim.

Now, that is interesting since I thought you were no longer allowed to write down your move before playing it!

That's correct, you can't usually but this is the one exception. The full text of the law is

9.2 The game is drawn upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

a. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or

b. has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

Positions as in (a) and (b) areconsidered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same.

Positions are not the same if a pawn that could have been captured en passant can no longer be captured in this manner. When a king or a rook is forced to move, it will lose its castling rights, if any, only after it is moved.

Sean Hewitt wrote:]The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter...

Although normally you wouldn’t have to call the arbiter, I have twice had opponents (guys evidently of many years if not decades of tournament experience) dispute that a three-fold repetition claim was valid on the grounds that the position had been repeated three times but the moves hadn’t been repeated. Even then, only on one of those occasions did I actually have to call an arbiter in the end.

Jonathan Bryant wrote:

Sean Hewitt wrote:]The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter...

Although normally you wouldn’t have to call the arbiter.

Indeed. Claiming a draw counts as a draw offer as well so if your opponent agrees, you don't have to wait for the arbiter to finish lunch before you can adjourn to the bar.

Jonathan Bryant wrote:

Sean Hewitt wrote:]The correct process is to write the intended move on the scoresheet without making it on the board, and then stop the clock and call the arbiter...

Although normally you wouldn’t have to call the arbiter, I have twice had opponents (guys evidently of many years if not decades of tournament experience) dispute that a three-fold repetition claim was valid on the grounds that the position had been repeated three times but the moves hadn’t been repeated. Even then, only on one of those occasions did I actually have to call an arbiter in the end.

I had a rather amusing draw by three fold in Gibraltar, I had to call the arbiter, and the player in question still repeatedly insisted it was not a draw, despite the fact the arbiter had agreed the claim and the game was over. It was somewhere gone 9.30pm if memory serves me correctly and I'm quite sure the arbiter in question was glad to call it a night

So by a convoluted interpretation of the laws - if your opponent writes their move down before moving, you can treat that as a draw offer, accept and head to the bar

Because writing their move down must de facto be treated as a claim (otherwise there would be a loophole for the "barrage technique" of consistently intending to claim a draw, but with a change of mind before stopping the clocks and calling the arbiter! )

Andrew Collins wrote:I had a rather amusing draw by three fold in Gibraltar, I had to call the arbiter, and the player in question still repeatedly insisted it was not a draw, despite the fact the arbiter had agreed the claim and the game was over.

Out of interest, why did your opponent think it shouldn’t be a draw?

Andrew Collins wrote:I had a rather amusing draw by three fold in Gibraltar, I had to call the arbiter, and the player in question still repeatedly insisted it was not a draw, despite the fact the arbiter had agreed the claim and the game was over. It was somewhere gone 9.30pm if memory serves me correctly and I'm quite sure the arbiter in question was glad to call it a night

I spent about 15 minutes in an analysis room earlier this year convincing a player in one congress that his game had ended in a draw by repetition. In the end, I got my laptop and input the game to Chessbase, so that I could click on the relevant moves to convince him that the position was indeed the same. I don't think even that convinced him.

Andrew Collins wrote:I had a rather amusing draw by three fold in Gibraltar, I had to call the arbiter, and the player in question still repeatedly insisted it was not a draw, despite the fact the arbiter had agreed the claim and the game was over.

Is the game over if the player has made the claim and the arbiter has incorrectly accepted it (and the opponent continues to dispute it)? I've had that happen to me once.

Don't know about that one. I guess there might be a possibility to appeal in some competitions, and you might start by not signing the scoresheet.

I had an opponent who disputed a draw claim because he thought the repetitions had to be in succession, rather than a few moves apart. A bit like people who say a hat-trick in football has to be 3 goals scored is succession. In practice most players just accept the draw without a claim being necessary - it is generally a tacit draw offer.