Touch-move question

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JustinHorton
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Touch-move question

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:19 pm

Just something that occurred to me a moment ago at the end of an online game. Does touch-move apply only to pieces on the board?

The particular circumstance I'm thinking of is that one player is about to promote and picks up the queen from the side if the board. However, before placing it, he or she realises that they will deliver stalemate if they promote as intended, so they pur down the queen, pick up the knight instead and place it on the promotion square. The opponent protests. Do they have a case?
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Touch-move question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:35 pm

The CAA (Chess Arbiters Association) notes to the 2017 FIDE Laws say

"Note that it is the player’s responsibility to exchange the pawn for a piece when promoting. The correct procedure is to advance the pawn and then replace it with a piece of the same colour. If the player pushes the pawn but restarts the opponent’s clock before promoting then an illegal move has
been played. The player should not ask the opponent to promote for him. Not only could this be seen as distracting the opponent but could lead to problems in situations where the opponent puts on the queen and announces stalemate!! The original player could claim that he had not made that move. The player may change his mind about which piece will replace the pawn until a piece touches the square of promotion; after which the player loses the right to select another piece."

David Sedgwick
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Re: Touch-move question

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:50 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:35 pm
The CAA (Chess Arbiters Association) notes to the 2017 FIDE Laws say

"Note that it is the player’s responsibility to exchange the pawn for a piece when promoting. The correct procedure is to advance the pawn and then replace it with a piece of the same colour. If the player pushes the pawn but restarts the opponent’s clock before promoting then an illegal move has
been played. The player should not ask the opponent to promote for him. Not only could this be seen as distracting the opponent but could lead to problems in situations where the opponent puts on the queen and announces stalemate!! The original player could claim that he had not made that move. The player may change his mind about which piece will replace the pawn until a piece touches the square of promotion; after which the player loses the right to select another piece."
I have emboldened the key sentence.

So the answer to Justin's question is "No, the opponent does not have a case".

E Michael White
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Re: Touch-move question

Post by E Michael White » Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:15 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:50 pm
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:35 pm
The CAA (Chess Arbiters Association) notes to the 2017 FIDE Laws say

"Note that it is the player’s responsibility to exchange the pawn for a piece when promoting. The correct procedure is to advance the pawn and then replace it with a piece of the same colour. If the player pushes the pawn but restarts the opponent’s clock before promoting then an illegal move has
been played. The player should not ask the opponent to promote for him. Not only could this be seen as distracting the opponent but could lead to problems in situations where the opponent puts on the queen and announces stalemate!! The original player could claim that he had not made that move. The player may change his mind about which piece will replace the pawn until a piece touches the square of promotion; after which the player loses the right to select another piece."
I have emboldened the key sentence.

So the answer to Justin's question is "No, the opponent does not have a case".
While I agree with the final comment - "No, the opponent does not have a case" the reference material quoted by David and Kevin is not accurate. The relevant FIDE Laws as in the latest 2018 version are :-
4.6.1 the pawn does not have to be placed on the square of arrival,
4.6.2 removing the pawn and putting the new piece on the square of promotion may occur in any order.
4.6.3 If an opponent’s piece stands on the square of promotion, it must be captured.
meaning normally the player no longer needs to advance the pawn to the eighth rank and the CAA notes are in error as to what they regard as the correct procedure.

(However everyone pause for thought) , except that FIDE Law 4.6.3 is inconsistent, in an inconsequential way, with 4.6.2 in the case of a capture as the capturing piece has to be put on the square of the captured piece in the general laws ! It could be taken that the capturing piece is the pawn not the substituted piece, requiring the pawn to be placed on the eighth if only temporarily.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Touch-move question

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:52 am

I should have checked before. The CAA notes to the 2018 Laws are longer:

"Note that it is the player’s responsibility to exchange the pawn for a piece when promoting. The correct procedure is to advance the pawn and then replace it with a piece of the same colour. If the player pushes the pawn but restarts the opponent’s clock before promoting then an illegal move has been played.

The player should not ask the opponent to promote for him. Not only could this be seen as distracting the opponent but could lead to problems in situations where the opponent puts on the queen and announces stalemate!! The original player could claim that he had not made that move. The player may change his mind about which piece will replace the pawn until a piece touches the square of promotion; after which the player loses the right to select another piece. Similarly, if a player puts on the replacement piece before advancing the pawn then that is the piece it must be
promoted to. Note that an upside-down rook placed on the board is not a queen but a rook. This applies even if the player names it as a queen.

See Article 4.6 for details on how promotion can be carried out."

The final sentence, which I have emboldened, refers to the Article quoted by Michael.

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