I have corrections for two of the Britbase files.
Concerning 1904, John Saunders has written at
http://www.saund.co.uk/britbase/Britkk.htm#bcf1904 that his 1904 British Championship file:
"...posted on BritBase contains significant amendments to that published by ChessBase. The biggest mistake is that the 32-move Blackburne-Michell game on the ChessBase database should actually [sic] an entirely different 59-move game Michell-Blackburne. Also, they have transposed the games of round 8 and 9. There are also a number of other minor anomalies which have been straightened out in the download. My thanks to Ken Clow for alerting me to some of these errors."
The above quote is dated 07 April 2004. I don't know what changes may have been made since then, nor what information John got from Ken Clow but I suspect that some of it was incorrect!
Looking at the Britbase file as it was this morning (20 August 2015), many of the dates of games from rounds 6-11 are incorrect because round 6 was played on the second Monday and the tournament finished on the second Saturday. (One round 6 game was played on the first Saturday by special arrangement. From memory I think it was the one involving Jacobs but I would have to check that.)
Moreover another game from a later round was not played on the scheduled date.
It is all rather complicated but will be explained in my Blackburne book, so it's probably best to await that before updating the current file as there is rather a lot to be fixed.
Notwithstanding these criticisms, John Saunders certainly deserves credit in general for his huge work on Britbase, and here in particular for inserting the correct game between Michell and Blackburne because, as stated in his quote above, Tony Gillam's 1904 tournaments book has a different game between them. Some time after John pointed this out in 2004 ChessBase has included the correct game whereas formerly it followed Gillam.
Searching just now on the ChessBase Mega Database 2011 (the most recent version I have) it looks as if they have also made the round number/date changes to copy Britbase so they have been misled about this tournament twice!
The games played on 31 August are correctly dated in the Britbase file, I think, but that's because John (as quoted above) was under the impression that ChessBase (which followed Gillam) had transposed rounds 8 and 9.
Actually Tony's book is correct in that respect. He gave round numbers not dates.
As a "checksum" I will just point out that Blackburne played Bellingham on Wednesday 31 August in round 8 and the game with Michell was in round 9 on Thursday 1 September 1904.
Unfortunately Blackburne's games against Tattersall and R. C. Macdonald remain unavailable but, thanks to John Hilbert's biography of Napier, my book does have Blackburne's game against Napier. I think Hilbert must have found it in the uncut version of Napier's own book.
Britbase gives the final date of the Congress as 4 September 1904 but that was a Sunday.
The prizegiving was actually held on the Saturday evening with BCF President F. G. Naumann presiding and his wife distributing the prizes.
Those who have access to the British Newspaper Archive can, for example, see the detailed report in the Yorkshire Post of Monday 5 September which is datelined Saturday and says "this evening".
Moving on to 1908 at Tunbridge Wells, when Palmer-Blackburne, 1908 appeared in BCM December pp. 551-552 they misprinted "43...P-B4" whereas Blackburne actually played "43...P-Kt4". That is why the end of the game as printed in BCM does not make sense which presumably explains why John Saunders could not give a complete score.
However this game from Black's 23rd move was analysed in Gunsberg's column in the Manchester Guardian on 1 September which gave the correct finish; there was also some discussion in the Guardian the next week when a reader pointed out an improvement for Blackburne at move 24.
Here is the correct score.
Britbase currently follows the BCM score which leads to an illegal move for Black at move 50.
If you post the corrected version online, John, please acknowledge that I have provided this information.
Corrections for Britbase on pre-WW1 British Championships
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Tim Harding
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Corrections for Britbase on pre-WW1 British Championships
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter
Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com
Historian and FIDE Arbiter
Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com
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John Saunders
- Posts: 1728
- Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:10 pm
- Location: Kingston-upon-Thames
Re: Corrections for Britbase on pre-WW1 British Championships
Many thanks, Tim. I'll have to see if I can effect at least some fixes to the 1904 file in the mean time. Ironically, I uploaded a new version with some added dates and amended names only this morning! It ought to be possible for me to check the rounds and dates via online newspaper archives (a luxury I did not have access to until relatively recently). I'll see what I can do.
I really appreciate all the help I've had from people on the forum. It occurs to me that it is quite a good idea for people to provide me with feedback via this public forum as it provides us with an audit trail of amendments - which is very useful. This is especially true if I've done something daft! Britbase is getting rather large and I can't always remember why I have corrected something, or where info came from (the 'What's New' page helps to some extent but is not comprehensive).
Incidentally, I think ChessBase make an annual 'visit' to Britbase and scoop up anything new they find. If I've got it wrong, you can be pretty sure they'll simply follow my (wrong) lead!
I really appreciate all the help I've had from people on the forum. It occurs to me that it is quite a good idea for people to provide me with feedback via this public forum as it provides us with an audit trail of amendments - which is very useful. This is especially true if I've done something daft! Britbase is getting rather large and I can't always remember why I have corrected something, or where info came from (the 'What's New' page helps to some extent but is not comprehensive).
Incidentally, I think ChessBase make an annual 'visit' to Britbase and scoop up anything new they find. If I've got it wrong, you can be pretty sure they'll simply follow my (wrong) lead!
Personal Twitter @johnchess
Britbase https://www.britbase.info
(I prefer email to PM - contact me via this link - https://www.saund.org.uk/email.html)
Britbase https://www.britbase.info
(I prefer email to PM - contact me via this link - https://www.saund.org.uk/email.html)
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Tim Harding
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Re: Corrections for Britbase on pre-WW1 British Championships
John, further to my earlier posting, I can now confirm that the Round 6 game that was indeed played on Saturday 27 August 1904 was Jacobs v Atkins. One of many sources providing that information is the Manchester Courier of Monday 29th.
The other five games in Round 6 were played on Monday 29th.
Round 7 Tuesday 30th,
Round 8 Wednesday 31st (if you follow the rounds in Gillam’s book you will be able to put this right);
Round 9 Thursday 1 Sept (except for Macdonald v Jacobs, which I would prefer people don’t write about in this forum, as it’s an amusing story explained in my Blackburne book).
Round 10 Friday 2 Sept,
Round 11 and prizegiving Saturday 3 Sept.
With regard to the 1908 Palmer-Blackburne I asked you to acknowledge this when you correct the score, because otherwise some reviewer of my book will say “Tim says Britbase has the game wrong but that’s not true.” If I had known when writing this text (mostly last year) that you were going to actively return to Britbase work on pre-1914 events then I would have written this differently but the book is in the press and cannot be changed. You are thanked for your Britbase work in the Preface.
I had intended to wait until the book was out before letting you know, but in view of the ongoing discussion here I thought it best to provide those two game scores and other discoveries from my research now. There are plenty more games and revelations about Blackburne in the book.
I am resigned to the fact that ongoing digitisation (especially of post-1900 newspapers) will unearth some games that are presently only represented by dummy entries in the book, but a halt to research had to be called at some point or the book would never appear. One from the 1910 British Championship already turned up – just too late to be included at proof stage. Any such games will be posted on my website http://www.chessmail.com once the book is published and will be included in any future reprint. (The publisher has already updated its files in respect of the game just referred to.)
The other five games in Round 6 were played on Monday 29th.
Round 7 Tuesday 30th,
Round 8 Wednesday 31st (if you follow the rounds in Gillam’s book you will be able to put this right);
Round 9 Thursday 1 Sept (except for Macdonald v Jacobs, which I would prefer people don’t write about in this forum, as it’s an amusing story explained in my Blackburne book).
Round 10 Friday 2 Sept,
Round 11 and prizegiving Saturday 3 Sept.
With regard to the 1908 Palmer-Blackburne I asked you to acknowledge this when you correct the score, because otherwise some reviewer of my book will say “Tim says Britbase has the game wrong but that’s not true.” If I had known when writing this text (mostly last year) that you were going to actively return to Britbase work on pre-1914 events then I would have written this differently but the book is in the press and cannot be changed. You are thanked for your Britbase work in the Preface.
I had intended to wait until the book was out before letting you know, but in view of the ongoing discussion here I thought it best to provide those two game scores and other discoveries from my research now. There are plenty more games and revelations about Blackburne in the book.
I am resigned to the fact that ongoing digitisation (especially of post-1900 newspapers) will unearth some games that are presently only represented by dummy entries in the book, but a halt to research had to be called at some point or the book would never appear. One from the 1910 British Championship already turned up – just too late to be included at proof stage. Any such games will be posted on my website http://www.chessmail.com once the book is published and will be included in any future reprint. (The publisher has already updated its files in respect of the game just referred to.)
Tim Harding
Historian and FIDE Arbiter
Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com
Historian and FIDE Arbiter
Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com
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John Saunders
- Posts: 1728
- Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:10 pm
- Location: Kingston-upon-Thames
Re: Corrections for Britbase on pre-WW1 British Championships
Tim: thanks, I think I've now got the hang of the 1904 tournament round structure, having spent an hour or two trawling through the British Newspaper online archive earlier this afternoon. I shall certainly acknowledge the corrected game score you have provided. I cannot remember how I came by that game score originally, but I like to think I didn't input it myself as I usually insert a note if there are unresolved moves in a game and I can't figure out the score. But 2004 is too long ago to remember exactly.
In reviewing the 1904 tournament I've found a few more minor games from subsidiary events which I shall add to the revised file. With new newspaper titles being added to the online archive all the time, I've no doubt that Britbase too goes out of date regularly. Of course, unlike printed material, it can be updated at the drop of a hat, but it still feels a bit like the proverbial painting of the Forth Bridge!
In reviewing the 1904 tournament I've found a few more minor games from subsidiary events which I shall add to the revised file. With new newspaper titles being added to the online archive all the time, I've no doubt that Britbase too goes out of date regularly. Of course, unlike printed material, it can be updated at the drop of a hat, but it still feels a bit like the proverbial painting of the Forth Bridge!
Personal Twitter @johnchess
Britbase https://www.britbase.info
(I prefer email to PM - contact me via this link - https://www.saund.org.uk/email.html)
Britbase https://www.britbase.info
(I prefer email to PM - contact me via this link - https://www.saund.org.uk/email.html)