SCCA Challenge Cup

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
Paul Dupré
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:33 am

Jon D'Souza-Eva wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:07 pm
Sounds like Reginald John Blackburn is a non-starter.

Here's a suggestion from out of left field - Reginald Joseph Broadbent.

His bio on chessgames.com says "He was Northern Counties Champion 1933-46, the Surrey champion 1947, and the British champion in 1948 and 1950". This was taken from the Yorkshire Chess History site (https://mannchess.org.uk/People/Broadbe ... Joseph.htm) which now has a correction for the suggestion that Broadbent was Surrey Champion, saying that the information came from the Bradford Chess Club’s Centenary History book (published in 1953).

According to the Yorkshire Chess History site, Broadbent's whereabouts from 1939 to 1946 are unclear, though it is thought he was still in the northern counties. Could it be that he was living in Blackburn during those years and entered the Surrey Championships in his first year down south under an assumed name, using the name of the town he had moved from?
Peter Large has just said by email that the trophy says 1948 R J Broadbent.

Jon you're a genius !!!

SCCA has just changed their website to show this fact.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:19 am

*mumble* check your primary sources *mumble*

Seriously, where did the "R. J. Blackburn" error come from? Was it first seen in the post by Paul D at the start of this thread or was it widely reported as such elsewhere?

Paul, where did your list come from? The SCCA website? It would genuinely be interesting to see if it is possible to work out why Blackburn was recorded at some point.

Paul Dupré
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:27 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:19 am
*mumble* check your primary sources *mumble*

Seriously, where did the "R. J. Blackburn" error come from? Was it first seen in the post by Paul D at the start of this thread or was it widely reported as such elsewhere?

Paul, where did your list come from? The SCCA website? It would genuinely be interesting to see if it is possible to work out why Blackburn was recorded at some point.
Official SCCA records
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:31 am

20221027_110824.png
20221027_110824.png (1.45 MiB) Viewed 567 times
It says 1948 R J Broadbent, second one down
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:23 am

Thanks, Paul. Maybe someone transcribing that started day-dreaming about Joseph Henry Blackburne?? Maybe news reports at the time, or the official records, included his town of origin (Blackburn), as pointed out by Jon in his original post pointing to solving this mystery, and this somehow ended up being what got recorded.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:04 am

I hope the spelling of RP Michell (top left) is correct - it's a bit difficult to read!

Having been involved in chess organization for a while, I have noticed that a lot of minute-takers make extraordinary typos, with some of them not having heard of players they ought to have done. Or they were into the fourth hour of the meeting and were losing concentration.

Paul Dupré
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:08 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:04 am
I hope the spelling of RP Michell (top left) is correct - it's a bit difficult to read!

Having been involved in chess organization for a while, I have noticed that a lot of minute-takers make extraordinary typos, with some of them not having heard of players they ought to have done. Or they were into the fourth hour of the meeting and were losing concentration.
Yes, it looks okay. The picture was taken last October, after being cleaned by the previous winner Russell Granat. If I get a chance, I will take pictures at angles that show the engraved names clearly, so we have a proper record.

I heard the original minute book disappeared some years ago. It might still be in a box in Steve White's parents' loft. Steve White (of Streatham & Brixton) was secretary in the 1990's. Maybe, someone from Streatham could try and retrieve the records he had in his possession.
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Mike Gunn » Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:44 pm

Paul emailed me asking where the historical records on the website were taken from. The bulk of my reply is below (omitting the bit which speculates about the identity of the person who mis-read the name off the Challenge Cup).

"If you look at the historical records section of the website you will notice that there are no officers listed before about 1920 whereas winners of competitions start in 1883/4 when the SCCA was actually founded. This is consistent with the possibly apocryphal story I heard somewhere that a senior member of the SCCA called White (either the president or the secretary) retired to the West Country more than 30 years ago and took all our historical records with him. When he died soon after, his widow was approached to recover these records and she refused to cooperate. The names of trophy winners have almost certainly been taken from the engravings on the cups and it does look from the interesting thread on the English chess forum that "Broadbent" is rather indistinct and was just mis-read.

"The missing details of SCCA officers could be recovered from chess magazines* and chess yearbooks. Surrey always put a rather extensive annual report in the yearbooks and I remember seeing (in some of the early ones) lists of officers and trophy winners going back several years (andthis was repeated in the following years). *For example, I found in the Chess Players Chronicle for 1883 that the first president of the SCCA was J. Steele, the first secretary was L.P. Rees and the first treasurer was E. J. Winter-Wood etc. I possess a very incomplete collection of BCF yearbooks and the earlier ones always give cross tables for the Surrey Individual."

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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:41 pm

"It might still be in a box in Steve White's parents' loft."

Steve White was Secretary, then one year someone else sent the notice of the AGM, so the Committee was asked why. W Waterton replied that Steve White had disappeared so someone else did it. A Streatham member volunteered that Steve was working in Italy. Later, Waterton proposed that the Officers be re-elected en bloc. I asked if this were a good idea, as the Secretary was obviously not around. Streatham confirmed that they had no idea if or when SW would return. Waterton looked puzzled and repeated the proposal. This was carried with I suspect only me voting against.

The next year, the same thing happened, and Waterton proposed re-electing the Officers en bloc. This time a chorus of voices said that was not a great idea, so the posts were elected individually and I think good old Fred Manning took on the Secretary job as well as Treasurer, and kept both posts for many years.

Paul Dupré
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:50 pm

Richard James wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 11:19 pm

Cecil Frank Cornwall

http://britishchessnews.com/2022/07/21/ ... -cornwall/
Would he have been a Richmond player in 1930 ?
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Paul Dupré
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Paul Dupré » Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:50 pm

Richard James wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 11:19 pm

Cecil Frank Cornwall

http://britishchessnews.com/2022/07/21/ ... -cornwall/
Would he have been a Richmond player in 1930 ?
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John Upham
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by John Upham » Sun Oct 29, 2023 7:37 am

Paul Dupré wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:31 am
It says 1948 R J Broadbent, second one down

See

https://britishchessnews.com/2020/10/29 ... 29-x-1988/
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
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Re: SCCA Challenge Cup

Post by Richard James » Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:13 am

Paul Dupré wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:50 pm
Richard James wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 11:19 pm

Cecil Frank Cornwall

http://britishchessnews.com/2022/07/21/ ... -cornwall/
Would he have been a Richmond player in 1930 ?
He wasn't playing in matches for Richmond in that period. I suspect he didn't have a club affiliation at the time.

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