Nice 74

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
Paul Cooksey
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:18 am

I think this might indeed be the main point of disagreement. Robbing a bank is likely to result in a 10 year prison sentence, and it can be life with aggravating factors. It is more serious that plagiarism. Plagiarism is a civil offense.

(I'm recommending Ronson as interesting rather than good. It is definitely lightweight and written to be entertaining. But some direct relevance here in the issues he covers. The perspective of the exposed plagiarist for example)
Last edited by Paul Cooksey on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 am

Robbing and defrauding are different offences Paul
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:22 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 am
Robbing and defrauding are different offences Paul
Touche. But do I have to google the criminal penalty for fraud to make the same point?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:23 am

Hi Justin,

Yes I think a polite nod at the start keeps the debate civil.

If you are cracking a joke or insulting people (albeit it on the sly) then one has to stand up and take the return flak.
It's a If you think you cannot take it, then do not dish it out type of thing.

Hi Paul,

". It might be in the bubble of chess history discussion plagiarism is one of the most serious issues imaginable."

The funny thing about it is that the actual moves of a game are not copyright.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:25 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:22 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:19 am
Robbing and defrauding are different offences Paul
Touche. But do I have to google the criminal penalty for fraud to make the same point?
No, because it's not the same point, because it's not the response of the criminal justice system (or inded the civil courts) that is at issue here, it's the response of the industry. I don't think a bank is going to employ somebody who's fiddled money from a bank, even if it was another bank, a relatively small amount and a long time ago. They are certainly not going to employ somebody who was a high-profile and unrepentant fraudster over a period of years, are they?
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:34 am

Hi Justin,

' I don't think a bank is going to employ somebody who's fiddled money from a bank...'

But they do using the thief to catch a thief method. A few bank employ known convicted hackers to test their security systems.

Maybe book publishers should employ Ray to spot plagiarists.

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John Saunders
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Re: Nice 74

Post by John Saunders » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:34 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:28 am

(It's the same with all the squawking and screeching, I just take it that it makes my point for me, and I'm very happy for it to continue.)
Yes, of course you are. You love all the attention, don't you, Justin. Well, most of the time, anyway. Maybe not so much when the spoilsports at Wikipedia stopped you having fun...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... Archive_16

(page a long way down or else search the page for 'fewwords'. Yes, that's right - Justin's Wikipedia handle is 'FewWords'.)

Since Justin and co are not prepared to give Paul a straight answer to his question about disproportionality, continue to muddy the waters by nit-picking various posters' verbiage, and wilfully misrepresent people's comments from years ago, etc, etc, I do recommend members of the forum read what the Wikipedia editors had to say to him on the very subject of disproportionality.

A more general observation: if I were to open today's newspaper and find in it an exposé of, say, Jeffrey Archer or Jonathan Aitken, my first thought would be "eh? This is ancient history!" That's pretty much my thinking when Justin and co continue their campaign against Ray Keene into the 2020s. With the constant repetition, it's got rather silly. I think I once described it here as 'flogging a dead penguin'. That was years ago. And they're still doing it.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:34 am
Hi Justin,

' I don't think a bank is going to employ somebody who's fiddled money from a bank...'

But they do using the thief to catch a thief method. A few bank employ known convicted hackers to test their security systems.

Maybe book publishers should employ Ray to spot plagiarists.
An amusing idea, but the trouble is that to spot Ray doing it, it was only necessary to look.
John Saunders wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:34 am
if I were to open today's newspaper and find in it an exposé of, say, Jeffrey Archer or Jonathan Aitken, my first thought would be "eh? This is ancient history!"
I believe the subject of history has indeed been raised on this thread, with a brief discussion of why we pay attention to it.
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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John Saunders
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Re: Nice 74

Post by John Saunders » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:37 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:52 am
Out of interest, are we going to have a whole round of will-you-condemns? We can take it in turns to insist that X condemns Y, and condemn them in their turn when they don't.
Haha, yes, I agree with you about 'will you condemn...'. I hate it too. Just did it out of sheer mischief. EDIT: though, thinking about it, isn't that what Olimpiu was asking us to do upthread?
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:52 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:18 am
The perspective of the exposed plagiarist for example
Oh that's interesting. This turns out to be Jonah Lehrer, which case I only vaguely recall. Do you find them particularly comparable?
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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:28 am
John Saunders wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:28 pm
ridiculous anonymous attack website which attempts to bully people into 'making a stand against' Keene.
How would it do that then?
By using much the same methods as you do on here, perhaps?

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:10 am
Hi Kevin - I hope we generally enjoy polite relations on this forum. But I do not think you should use the phrase "squawking and screeching" to characterise the responses of people you disagree with.
It wasn't Kevin who introduced the phrase. We are all entitled to expect other posters to practise what they preach.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 am

"Hi Kevin - I hope we generally enjoy polite relations on this forum. But I do not think you should use the phrase "squawking and screeching" to characterise the responses of people you disagree with. I very much agreed with Justin's observation that important when debating contentious topic we do not resort to abuse."

Hi Paul

We do - even on the rare occasions when we disagree! I view you as one of the voices of reason.

I was pointing out Justin's hypocrisy, i.e falsely accusing others of doing what he does. If Justin actually followed his observation, life would be better. I think debating is ideally an exchange of views, where you actually listen to what the opponent says, rather than just bullying and belittling the opponent or trying to stop them speaking.

Whilst I'm here, I have to admit that I was placed next to Ray at a prizegiving dinner at a NATO Team Tournament a few years ago. We had a friendly chat, in which the forum was mentioned. Previously, he did a simul at Redhill Chess Club, and having been told that the Chairman was a teacher of Latin, Ray greeted him without preamble with a poem in Latin, which delighted the Chairman. It never occurred to me that he was plagiarising Ovid.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:37 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 am
By using much the same methods as you do on here, perhaps?
Good Lord, it's those sinister "methods" again
Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:36 am
Ray greeted him without preamble with a poem in Latin, which delighted the Chairman. It never occurred to me that he was plagiarising Ovid.
Why would it?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:37 am
David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:35 am
By using much the same methods as you do on here, perhaps?
Good Lord, it's those sinister "methods" again.
Well, here is an example from another thread of a post of yours containing an element of menace.
JustinHorton (in another thread) wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:28 pm
I would however strongly discourage you from eliding criticism with abuse.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:54 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 am
Well, here is an example from another thread of a post of yours containing an element of menace.
Ha ha David well let me invite you to report the post

Image
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com