Nice 74

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:20 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:10 am
.
It reads like the higher the number the more you endorse Ray's plagiarism so you are in effect being bullied into defending yourself by taking a tougher stance and break out in spots every time Ray is mentioned when in reality all they want is to be left in peace and not labelled in this way
Doesn't this actually mean "people are being criticised"?
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:56 am
the issue we are discussing, which is what is a proportionate response to plagiarism.
Which is an interesting and useful.thing to discuss, but without wishing to muddy the waters too much, we might also need to ask:

a. response by whom?
b. are we talking about generic "plagiarism", or the specific instance of wholescale plagiarism we have here, or what?
c. are we taking into account other misconduct, or just taking plagiarism in isolation?
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:23 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:20 am
Doesn't this actually mean "people are being criticised"?
"...unfairly."

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:31 am

Well of course anybody's entitled to take that view: but so what? "Somebody thinks they have been criticised unfairly" is a matter of how much importance? Does this even require saying?
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John Saunders
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Re: Nice 74

Post by John Saunders » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:35 am

O.G. Urcan wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:58 am
After Paul Cooksey raised the subject of alleged cases of compensation for Raymond Keene's plagiarism, I wrote here yesterday:
"One injured party who was certainly never compensated is Edward Winter. A substantial text of his was plagiarized three times by Raymond Keene: in The Spectator, on a webpage and in a book by Keene. Mr Winter complained in Chess Notes, and also directly to the Editor of The Spectator (who never replied). That clear-cut case of plagiarism by Raymond Keene was even mentioned in Private Eye, but Mr Winter never received a word of apology, let alone compensation."
Mr Cooksey's answer:
"I am not aware of any injured party being denied their right to compensation for GM Keene's plagiarism. I do not know why Mr Winter chose not to exercise his right, although some of the more obvious possible explanations might support the position I am arguing."
I do not know what that is supposed to mean.

O.G. Urcan
Hi Olimpiu,

Nice of you to pop in. I hope you don't mind me butting in here but I have a couple of comments.

Re names: we don't stand on ceremony here - posters are all on first name terms. Hence you should address 'Mr Cooksey' as 'Paul, I'm John, Justin's Justin, etc, etc. And, if you'll forgive me pointing this out, your forum name is non-standard - it should really be 'Olimpiu Urcan' rather than initials and surname. I believe this standard was set many years ago when the forum came into being. I apologise in advance if I've got that wrong; perhaps a moderator could comment.

In addition to the informality regarding names, there's an expectation that posters with a high profile in the chess world should be prepared to answer questions as well as pose them. You certainly fit into that category - you have a Wikipedia entry and have had published a number of well-received chess titles. To date (and apologies if I have this wrong) your contributions here have consisted of questions posed to various posters and links to matters of controversy (possibly only one matter of controversy). I'm sure members of the forum would value your observations: can I therefore ask whether you'd be prepared to answer a few questions?

Earlier in this thread I referred to a certain anonymous website which, in its zeal to attack Ray Keene, doesn't scruple to traduce those who are entirely innocent of any of the charges levelled at said GM. It's worth noting also that the editors of Wikipedia some years ago, when someone with the Wikipedia handle 'FewWords' edited Ray Keene's Wikipedia page to include a long list of his alleged misconduct, reversed most of the edits, partly on the grounds of disproportionality but also because many of the references cited were to unreliable and unverifiable sources. (Page down a long way here for the main discussion.) In the light of this and my own objections to the aforementioned website stated earlier in the thread and several years ago, would you be prepared to join me in condemning it?
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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:52 am

Out of interest, are we going to have a whole round of will-you-condemns? We can take it in turns to insist that X condemns Y, and condemn them in their turn when they don't.
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Nick Ivell
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:53 am

Thanks for the link, John. Very useful.

What we need is a BALANCED discussion on Keene.

I am no friend of his; I believe that no one is trying to defend the indefensible; but let's have some measure here, and not make Keene out to be a latter-day Vito Corleone.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:53 am

Justin Horton said

"It's the same with all the squawking and screeching, I just take it that it makes my point for me, and I'm very happy for it to continue."

But it's you and your cronies that do all the squawking and screeching - so that hardly makes your point, does it?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:55 am

"Cronies" is good
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:57 am

Hi Justin,

'Doesn't this actually mean "people are being criticised"?

To me, and I'm most upset about NOT being on the list. It's a joke. (BTW people I did not do it!)

But I can see why quite a few people are not happy about it. They are being labelled, anonymously, which is cowardly,
and it should be ignored. However, I in all good faith thinking it was daft nonsense did link and copy the thing.
So everyone can blame me for this one, (sorry lads) and 'Teflon Chandler' will in turn blame the mods for letting it stay.
(I bet Carl and Jack's hearts hit their boots every time they see a RDK mention - '...here we go again.')

I did the 'RDK' test. It's true, this site cannot handle all the RDK mentions.
Search for RDK - 'The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words: RDK.'

Search for 'Chess' and you get 104,862 hits, the site can handle that!

( :) It's just a glitch, type in any three letters 'ABC' and you will get the RDK response. )

Hi Olimpiu,

John is correct, first names, helps to keep it all polite. I though about using just O.G. but that stands for' Own Goal.'
That along with 'Teflon' is another one of my tags: 'Own Goal Chandler' I've scored a few of those in my time.
(In some posts I've managed a hat-trick!)
Last edited by Geoff Chandler on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:58 am

Nick Ivell wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:53 am
Thanks for the link, John. Very useful.

What we need is a BALANCED discussion on Keene.

I am no friend of his; I believe that no one is trying to defend the indefensible; but let's have some measure here, and not make Keene out to be a latter-day Vito Corleone.
Amusingly I have actually seen Ray's network referred to in those tems, but yes of course - and again, so what? It's another straw man, nobody is doing this.

(And yet he is an exceptional figure, in what he's been allowed to do and for how long he's allowed to do it.)
Last edited by JustinHorton on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:59 am

Fast moving thread this morning, but just to note:
John Saunders wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:35 am
Re names: we don't stand on ceremony here - posters are all on first name terms.
I was implying rather than stating the names policy. I took the view a while ago that if I was going to call Mr Barden Leonard then I should do it universally. But part of the reason I was drawing attention to it was to indicate that I think understanding community standards is important. It might be in the bubble of chess history discussion plagiarism is one of the most serious issues imaginable. Harsh language in criticism of it is certainly acceptable. But in a wider context, there are much worse things. So the response to it needs to be calibrated.

In passing, the historic footage @olimpiuurcan has been posting on Twitter recently is excellent, if there is anyone reading this thread not already following him. That is almost a unlikely as anyone here not having seen the S&B plagiarism lists though.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:00 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:59 am
It might be in the bubble of chess history discussion plagiarism is one of the most serious issues imaginable.
Well it might be that in the world of journalism it is, too.
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:57 am
They are being labelled, anonymously, which is cowardly,
No, not really. Both old and new media often use anonymity, for all kinds of reasons, and these reasons can be good as well as bad.
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:57 am
first names, helps to keep it all polite.
Does it indeed
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:10 am

Of course, a journalist can lose a job for plagiarism. Often the proportionate response. I probably would not go as far as saying the perpetrator should be banned from work in field in perpetuity though, and I would not wish friends or family to suffer consensus if they are innocent. Regrettable often the case though. As I said, I recommend the Jon Ronson book.

Hi Kevin - I hope we generally enjoy polite relations on this forum. But I do not think you should use the phrase "squawking and screeching" to characterise the responses of people you disagree with. I very much agreed with Justin's observation that important when debating contentious topic we do not resort to abuse.

Nick Ivell
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:12 am

Strangely, I still have to take a gulp before calling Mr Barden 'Leonard'; it feels a bit like calling your former head teacher by their first name.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:14 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:10 am
Of course, a journalist can lose a job for plagiarism. Often the proportionate response. I probably would not go as far as saying the perpetrator should be banned from work in field in perpetuity though
I would, when we're talking the absolutely mammoth quantity of plagiarism involved here, and I'd go further and say this was obvious. It's like having somebody who's defrauded a bank, say, work in banking again - they've obviously got no reasonable expectation whatsoever that they should be allowed to do so.

(I've not read the Ronson, perhaps I will one day - I've come across decidedly different reactions to it. But are we actually talking about comparable situations? I wonder if we are.)
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