Nice 74

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MJMcCready
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Nice 74

Post by MJMcCready » Tue May 04, 2021 8:39 pm

Could someone shed light on whether what I am hearing is correct or not? It pertains to the last matches of the 74 Olympiad for the England team. I'm hearing that both Keene and Hartston were gunning for GM norms, and because of this there was a lot of shuffling about, with Keene dropping out of the team (until the final match against Sweden) forcing Hartston to play the likes of Timman and Najdorf on board one. Is there any truth to the matter? The point being that, much to Hartston's disgust, Keene had agreed with Anderton to play only once in the final few matches against Andersson? Did Keene actually achieve a GM norm at the olympiad? I can't find records showing that he did.

NickFaulks
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Re: Nice 74

Post by NickFaulks » Tue May 04, 2021 9:28 pm

Yes, RDK did get his first norm in Nice ( and the other one at the next Olympiad in Haifa ). He did indeed sit out four of the final five rounds before taking a 12 move draw against Ulf Andersson - a King's Gambit! Perhaps he wasn't feeling well.

I do not recall whether Hartston expressed any public annoyance at having to play in nine consecutive rounds.

Another interesting feature of the England team was that Tony Miles wasn't in it.
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 04, 2021 9:33 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:39 pm
Did Keene actually achieve a GM norm at the olympiad? I can't find records showing that he did.
That was his first Norm, his second being at Haifa in the 1976 Olympiad.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 pm

MJMcCready wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:39 pm
Could someone shed light on whether what I am hearing is correct or not?
It was in Kingpin
https://www.kingpinchess.net/2016/02/ra ... ra-mundum/

A comment by Michael Stean (also in the 1974 team)
Scroll some way down
And yet Michael Stean could not share his team-mate’s pride in this success: ....

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed May 05, 2021 12:16 am

Ducking and Diving, Wheeling and Dealing happens all the time at Olympiads to pick up title norms.

Last round 1972 England v Israel. Bill Hartston (bd. 2) needs a draw for an IM norm but is the exchange down
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2031214

Meanwhile Bob Wade (Bd. 3) is clearly winning. A deal was done and boards 2 and 3 were drawn.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2031215

All this is revealed in CHESS page 35 October 1972.

It sounds like Bill touches on this (see link below) in an excellent piece on clearing up a related title chasing chess myth.

"I made a norm in one Olympiad, but I don’t think those ones should count (laughs)."

http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... tston.html

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MJMcCready
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Re: Nice 74

Post by MJMcCready » Wed May 05, 2021 1:59 am

Thanks, interesting to know what the motives for plying are under such circumstances, leads me to wonder what the strongest ever England team was. 86 maybe?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 05, 2021 6:51 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:16 am
Ducking and Diving, Wheeling and Dealing happens all the time at Olympiads to pick up title norms
Yeah it was a bit more than that Geoff wasn't it
Last edited by JustinHorton on Wed May 05, 2021 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick Ivell
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed May 05, 2021 8:46 am

So were these norms, gained at team events, dodgy?

In short, was Keene not of true grandmaster strength?

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MJMcCready
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Re: Nice 74

Post by MJMcCready » Wed May 05, 2021 9:05 am

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:46 am
So were these norms, gained at team events, dodgy?

In short, was Keene not of true grandmaster strength?
I don't think he was, primarily, a good team mate.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by NickFaulks » Wed May 05, 2021 9:07 am

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:46 am
So were these norms, gained at team events, dodgy?
He got the results, but it must be helpful if you can select your own opponents.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Wed May 05, 2021 9:36 am

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 8:46 am
So were these norms, gained at team events, dodgy?
The norm was fine, the stabbing your team-mate in the back less so
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed May 05, 2021 10:19 am

Keene was certainly of grandmaster strength. There has always been manipulation of norms at Olympiads, players avoiding certain opponents etc. In those days, you could get a norm, then lose it again if you had a bad result later in the event. FIDE then changed the rules, so if you had a norm after 9 rounds, you at least had that, even if you then failed to get a 10, 11 etc round norm. This might encourage norm-hunters to play on after they got the norm, and avoid bad feeling... Hartston certainly got a raw deal.

More recently, you could get CM title with 50 % in an Olympiad or FM with 66 %, (irrespective of opposition), so some of the smaller nations have put their highest-rated player on bottom board to help them get a title, and this player has avoided playing in the first two rounds, so they don't play a top-half team.

Apart from all that, there have been many instances where team selection and board order in England (and other) teams have not been decided on strength of the players. Team events are frequently murky.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Alex McFarlane » Wed May 05, 2021 11:24 am

More than the kudos and any of the benefits, in terms of invitations etc, from being the first English GM there was also the Slater award of £5k (won by Miles).

Nick Ivell
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Wed May 05, 2021 11:29 am

I think Keene was our second GM. Seems odd that Hartston never got the title, given that he was of almost equal strength; maybe he didn't manipulate the Olympiads enough!

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed May 05, 2021 11:31 am

In 'Becoming a Grandmaster' Ray thanks team captain David Anderton for his help in getting his Norms at both Olympiads. (1974 and 1976)
Some discussion must have go on. It could have been agreed by everyone present in 1974 that Ray has a rest so he can get a Norm.

Hi Kevin,

Agree team events are 'murky' perhaps they should not be used to get norms. You cannot sit out rounds
in a normal tournament, nor can you slip down a board order to get an easier game.
The system has a jiggery-pokery fault, can we really blame players and team captains for taking advantage of it.

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