Nice 74

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David Sedgwick
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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:36 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:42 pm
... the betrayal of Kortchnoi for example.
I think that the received spelling is "Korchnoi".

I was the Chief Arbiter at the Staunton Memorial event in 2009, organised by Keene and in which Korchnoi played.

It was evident to me that they had kissed and made up, although I have no idea how and when. Korchnoi was friendly towards Keene and I don't think that he would have been capable of faking that demeanour.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:52 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:41 am
JustinHorton wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 pm
Of course it's alao true that he eventually lost all his newspaper columns. But at the same time it's also true that there's never been any official statement as to why he was let go. So there's no proper accounting, no taking of responsibility, not on his part, not on anybody else's, and everybody can just pretend and carry on.
Maybe this is the thing I see fundamentally differently. I don't think GM Keene's reputation is intact or that the the chess world pretends it is.
Thing is, whenever he comes up you do get all these people coming in to defend him and to shout down his critics,and I don't think that they're outliers: it seems clear to me that many senior figures in English chess (in both senses of senior) have generally been keen to overlook what he does because for a variety of reasons they find it convenient to do so. And this isn't a pattern of behaviour that's restricted to relations with Ray, which is pretty much the point.

Without a proper accounting with past events, no lessons are learned and no changes are made for the future. I'm quite sure for instance that the Times and Spectator have no intention of changing the attitudes and practices that led to them employing and protecting this absurd and unethical figure for so long. I don't care too much about that, because those publications are trash. But I do care about English chess, and I would like it to do better.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:02 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:52 am
But I do care about English chess, and I would like it to do better.
Would you like to be specific? By all means start a new thread if you wish.

If you were (say) the Chief Executive of the ECF, what exactly would you do differently from now and what would you do which is not being done now?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 pm

I don't think I have mentioned the ECF
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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:18 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:13 pm
I don't think I have mentioned the ECF
Fair enough. I shall rephrase, as the lawyers say.

If you held an important position in English chess, what would you wish to do differently from how it is being done now and what would you wish to do which is not being done now?

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:24 pm

That's pretty much the same question as before though.

(This is really a cultural issue involvng attitudes across a community, not one that's especially about how a given official body has acted.)
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Re: Nice 74

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:29 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:24 pm
That's pretty much the same question as before though.
Can we assume that you are composing a response?
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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:30 pm

No, you can assume I am preparing lunch.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by David Sedgwick » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:38 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:24 pm
That's pretty much the same question as before though.

(This is really a cultural issue involvng attitudes across a community, not one that's especially about how a given official body has acted.)
I'll try one more time.

If you held a position which might enable you to influence what you see as the prevailing attitudes in the English chess community, what would your objectives be and how would you seek to achieve them?

A few days ago you accused me of thinking it "somehow clever to play games". Please don't lay yourself open to the same accusation.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:47 pm

Hi David.

I think the problem here is that you seem to think I am talking about the official body of English chess and in fact I'm talking about something wider and more diffuse, although the ECF comes into it to some extent.

I am talking about the practices and attitudes of what we might roughly define as the community of people who are involved in organised chess in England, and in particular how they tend to respond to misconduct, to individuals who ought not to be trusted, and in general to issues with which they may be uncomfortable. (If I am not able to be more specific than that it's because that's a hard thing to do in a short posting, but if I am able to get into it at greater depth at a later time or date, it may become clear that I don't think "a position which might enable you to influence what you see as the prevailing attitudes in the English chess community" is really a thing, and why. It is possible I may be able to explain what I think these practices and attitudes are, but short of these being recognised and there being a willingness to change, there is nothing to be done.)
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Thomas Rendle » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:04 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:38 pm
I'll try one more time.

If you held a position which might enable you to influence what you see as the prevailing attitudes in the English chess community, what would your objectives be and how would you seek to achieve them?
I'll try a brief answer to this question:

There's needs to be a clear method to report issues to the ECF in regards to racial and sexual discrimination, and sexual harassment. What's the current ECF policy on this? At least with a clear way to report these issues we might get some idea the extent of the problem, which I suspect would surprise some.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:52 am
Without a proper accounting with past events, no lessons are learned and no changes are made for the future. I'm quite sure for instance that the Times and Spectator have no intention of changing the attitudes and practices that led to them employing and protecting this absurd and unethical figure for so long. I don't care too much about that, because those publications are trash. But I do care about English chess, and I would like it to do better.
Couldn't disagree more. When countries or cultures still simmer deep with resentment over events from hundreds of years ago (and they certainly exist), it is not healthy. Sometimes the bad guys win, and its not always healthy to try and hold them to justice.

And I actually think the Spectator is well written, with a diversity of views, that makes it one of more interesting current affairs weeklies to read (and also probably the best current chess column).

In terms of failures in English chess: absolutely the biggest ones were those involving the sexual abuse of junior players. I remember one of the first chess books I got was one which, in the introduction, thanked all the children who had helped with the material (said author then sent to prison for sexual abuse of children).

Far, far bigger issues than anything RDK did.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:08 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:52 am
Without a proper accounting with past events, no lessons are learned and no changes are made for the future. I'm quite sure for instance that the Times and Spectator have no intention of changing the attitudes and practices that led to them employing and protecting this absurd and unethical figure for so long. I don't care too much about that, because those publications are trash. But I do care about English chess, and I would like it to do better.
Couldn't disagree more. When countries or cultures still simmer deep with resentment over events from hundreds of years ago (and they certainly exist), it is not healthy.
No it is not, but it is less healthy to simply try and bury the events that took place, to hold nobody responsible and to try as far as possible not even to discuss it. As it goes the country I live in is perhaps the best contemporary example that we have. (Of course, both my comparison and yours may be seen as a bit over-heated.)
Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm
And I actually think the Spectator is well written, with a diversity of views
It is our media's main dispensary of persistent racist poison.
Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:57 pm
In terms of failures in English chess: absolutely the biggest ones were those involving the sexual abuse of junior players. I remember one of the first chess books I got was one which, in the introduction, thanked all the children who had helped with the material (said author then sent to prison for sexual abuse of children).

Far, far bigger issues than anything RDK did.
This is definitely and I trust uncontroversially true and absolutely should be said more often. Three small points I would make:

(a) it is not as if discussing Ray in some way prevents us from discussing those scandals
(b) it is not as if we exactly got to the bottom of, for instance, the Brian Eley scandal either
(c) as I have been trying to say, we are talking about a problem of culture in the English chesss community which Ray's career illuminates, and that culture has contributed to all kinds of other scandals including the ones you refer to. Put in that way, perhaps you can see some of the reasons why I think the question of how he has been able to get away with so much is not simply a historical matter.
Last edited by JustinHorton on Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:55 pm

Did Raymond ever have the world at his feet?

I don't know him well - hardly at all - but I can't imagine than even in his most ambitious moments, he ever imagined he was going to catch Karpov up.

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Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:57 pm

No, but he was the second to a guy who was one win away from winning the world championship in a match second in profile only to Fischer-Spassky. Did that mean he found it necessary to concentrate on the job? He did not.
"Do you play chess?"
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