Nice 74

Historical knowledge and information regarding our great game.
Jonathan Bryant
Posts: 3452
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Nice 74

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Sat May 08, 2021 6:58 pm

Nick Ivell wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:29 am
I think Keene was our second GM. Seems odd that Hartston never got the title, given that he was of almost equal strength; maybe he didn't manipulate the Olympiads enough!

Keene was England's second GM. He got the title at Haifa too. The back cover of Becoming a Grandmaster implies that he got the title at the same time as Miles. This is technically true in that they were both awarded the title at Haifa. The real truth, though, was that Miles had qualified for the title some time before the Olympiad and was only waiting for formal ratification (people in that kind of limbo used to be called GM Elects. God knows why). Ray got awarded the title on the last day after his pre-arranged draw with Andersson.

With regard to Hartston not becoming a GM, the interview that Geoff linked to earlier

http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... tston.html


was a really fun hour or so for me. One of my favourite blogging memories.


I remember talking to Bill about the whole not-being-a-GM thing. He clearly didn't give a rat's arse either way.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 5205
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Nice 74

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat May 08, 2021 7:05 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:27 am
There's something in that, at least in so far as he's funny in his way, whereas his cronies and suck-ups aren't. But ultimately he isn't lovable, he's quite unpleasant and some of what he's got up to is quite serious and nasty, and the kid gloves aren't a result of what he's done as such, they're a result of the habits of the people who don them. It's not that they don't see, it's that they prefer not to look.

That's the thing about any figure whose misconduct is spread over a long period of time. They tell a story about themselves, of course they do, but they also shed light on the society in which they operate, and which to a greater or lesser extent lets them get away with it. So the story of Ray Keene, from Nice (or earlier) up to today, is also the story of English chess, and it's not a flattering one: and that's basically why it unsettles some people to have it told, and why they would like it forgotten.
Must admit I was very tempted to draw parallels with a certain very prominent UK politician in that previous post.

What you have just written also fits BoJo (for it is, indeed, he) like a glove.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 5205
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Nice 74

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat May 08, 2021 7:06 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 1:36 pm
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:43 pm
just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
One of the Scottish players once sat out the remaining Olympiad rounds to safeguard an IM Norm. There was some criticism at the time, but it was defended on the grounds that an additional Scottish IM was of more value to chess in Scotland than improving a few places in a mid table finish. I don't quite recall when, but probably at least forty years ago.
Wonder if it was the same Scottish IM who posts here a bit - if so, it would be very nice to have their own perspective on that.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 3486
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover

Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun May 09, 2021 1:05 am

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:50 pm
Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:45 pm
But yes, Bill should have been in on it....And I cannot fault Ray, he arranged the deal, (apparently)
What can you do
(If only you knew how long it took me to sort out the quote I wanted to highlight... what a shambles.)

I cannot really fault Ray as that would be hypocritical having admitted I would probably do the same.
Though I would have brought the players concerned in on the deal. I would have asked nicely,
hopefully a few of the team would already have titles and know what I was I was going through.

Thinking about it and trying to put myself in the same position I can understand why it happens.
Gosh, it must be awful to lose a critical norm game. How do you come back from that one.
(FIDE should scrap the norm system for GM's, I'm starting to think it's sadistic.)

Thankfully it looks like that is a situation I've never have to face.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 10364
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Sun May 09, 2021 1:08 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:05 am
I cannot really fault Ray as that would be hypocritical having admitted I would probably do the same.
Though I would have brought the players concerned in on the deal.
<thousand-yard stare>
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

NickFaulks
Posts: 8453
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Nice 74

Post by NickFaulks » Sun May 09, 2021 8:33 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 1:05 am
Though I would have brought the players concerned in on the deal.
And when they said no?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Nick Ivell
Posts: 1138
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Nice 74

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun May 09, 2021 9:07 am

Was that Craig Pritchett?

I seem to recall, at one of the Olympiads, that he got a winning position against Karpov of all people...

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 3486
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover

Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun May 09, 2021 2:39 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 8:33 am
And when they said no?
Hi Nick,

In this hypothetical case let's set the scene.

I need one more draw for a norm. I am 100% guaranteed a last round draw but there are four rounds to go before I get there.
I ask my team mates if I can sit out the four games....you ask what happens when they say 'No!'

Good Question, see the question I've asked at the bottom of this post.

(first get the joke out of the way. I have a feeling they would be overjoyed as without me they might actually win a few matches. :) )

I was picked to play for a team not to get a norm, if the situation was we were in with a chance for a medal than
I'd forget about it. I'd be more upset being the sole loser in a 2½-1½ loss costing the team a medal than losing a norm.

But if it was a GM norm (a super hypothetical case - me getting a GM norm) for a team heading for a mid-table finish
I'd ask if it was possible to sit it out, I'm being honest here, my repertoire is all gambits, sacs, two moves traps and hope.

It would have to be a majority 'Yes' if one player objected then I'd play, I'd hold no grudge.
Shrug shoulders; "Geoff You got yourself into this position, just play."

I think I'd have to ask, or hopefully someone might suggest it first.
Imagine screwing it up only to be told by all your team mates, ' you should have asked for a rest.'

Recap: If I asked and they or even one of them said 'No.' then so be it.
If I screwed it up, it's myself to blame, I know I'd not hold it against any of them.

Alternatively if a team mate was in the same position and ask for a 'rest' I'd agree right away. (again an honest answer).
Pressure off, if I turn in a bad showing I can always say, I was in poor form, needed a rest but played on to allow
(pick a name at random ) to get a GM norm. And with the pressure off I can shoot for the Brilliancy Prize.

Does anyone know of a case where a player has asked to be rested to get a Norm and been told, 'No!''.

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 3486
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover

Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun May 09, 2021 5:08 pm

I mention earlier how I warned against Ray's playing style in the 70's. 'Stodgy etc.'

From Ray's latest piece in The Article (relax Justin, I won't give a link )

Mid article Ray relates about about some of the negative reporting his play attracted in the 70's.
I seem to recall is was OK. (or OK'ish) Word of mouth it was damning. I'm glad I eventually got around to playing over some of his games.

"After winning the British Championship in 1971, reports by an influential writer of the day (whose name I shall withhold,
according to the formula: de mortuis nihil nisi bonum) referred to my lack of fighting spirit, when I had actually made speculative
and unsound sacrifices to force events and gone through multiple adjournments with games lasting for days and over 100 moves.

The same, at least in my opinion, talent-free critic went even further when I won the international tournament at Woolacombe in 1973,
writing a report which more or less failed to mention me, apart from focusing attention on my only loss! "

Ray is using that bit to highlight that such negative reporting in the old Soviet Union could have severe consequences for the player concerned.

'....speculative and unsound sacrifices.' I was wondering who I got that from.
GM Raymond Keene, OBE, you owe me x amount of rating points and a handful of 'norms.'
Let's see how good you really are. Get me into an Olympiad team (any Olympiad team) and fix it
so I get 2 or 3 GM norms, a suntan, a publishing deal with Mills and Boon and a good lawyer.

Here is the link (OOPS!)

https://www.thearticle.com/a-soviet-sur ... _AcuDN-KXQ

User avatar
Gerard Killoran
Posts: 1006
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Nice 74

Post by Gerard Killoran » Sun May 09, 2021 8:07 pm

Despite promising not to give a link, Geoff couldn't resist giving one.

I wonder what attracted Geoff to such original thinking and deathless prose as this gem from Raymondo?
Over the past two weeks in my columns for TheArticle I have inveighed against cancel culture, the obliteration of memory, the hard-Left campaign to achieve imposition of a herd mentality and rated obsessions of the “woking class”.
I would have thought that The Penguin would find 'the obliteration of memory' very useful.

O.G. Urcan
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:37 am

Re: Nice 74

Post by O.G. Urcan » Mon May 10, 2021 6:09 am

Yesterday Geoff Chandler quoted the following from Raymond Keene's
latest piece in "The Article":
"After winning the British Championship in 1971, reports by an influential writer of the day (whose name I shall withhold,
according to the formula: de mortuis nihil nisi bonum) referred to my lack of fighting spirit, when I had actually made speculative
and unsound sacrifices to force events and gone through multiple adjournments with games lasting for days and over 100 moves.

The same, at least in my opinion, talent-free critic went even further when I won the international tournament at Woolacombe in 1973,
writing a report which more or less failed to mention me, apart from focusing attention on my only loss!"
That text by Raymond Keene is a copy-paste from his Petrosian book of 15
years ago. It is one of several attacks by Keene on W. Ritson Morry
which were examined by Edward Winter many years ago in Chess Notes item
8443: https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/win ... ml#CN_8443

O.G. Urcan

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 3486
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover

Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon May 10, 2021 9:26 am

Hi Gerard,

Quoting a piece and linking to the source is I think the correct and accepted procedure.
Of course after being informed by Justin that linking to Ray's column is ' tawdry and embarrassing.' and told to stop it:

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11701&start=30#p265167

It's not a question of me not being able to resist it, it's more of me simply ignoring him.

He is fully entitled to his opinion, 'tawdry and embarrassing.' but I was struck by the coincidence.
I had posted before reading Ray's piece about his 'stodge' reputation in the 70's and then
Ray himself mentions it (you don't think he reads this forum...)

But I'm glad you too find some of the non-chess stuff Ray writes ' deathless prose.'
I thought it was just me and my lack of an Oxbridge education.

When Ray slips off board so to speak and dips his ink into the non-chess world then
I find myself re-reading these bits looking for the meaning. His chess stuff is good but
pointing out what is wrong with the world in a way I find too heavily worded I just skip.

(maybe this is one of Ray's 'newer sins' that Justin mentions. If so, then I agree with him.)

You get to vote on his column but as there is no 'The chess stuff is good' button I just vote on that,
the chess stuff, sometimes a I give a low mark for 'well argued.' because I do not know if I am
agreeing or not agreeing with him when it comes to non-chess matters.

Once I posted there:

"Too many long words for me to decide if it was well argued or I agree. Last time
I agreed to something I did not understand a Nigerian Prince emptied my back account."

---

Hi Olimpiù,

I despair of Ray sometimes, please give me time to read the link you added.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Nice 74

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 10, 2021 9:29 am

O.G. Urcan wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:09 am
That text by Raymond Keene is a copy-paste from his Petrosian book of 15
years ago.
I suppose we could have guessed that the material was recycled.

Elsewhere I thought I had read him writing about his teenage years and his style of play. He emulated Tal in the Modern Benoni using Peter Clarke's book on Tal as source material. That changed after he faced Botvinnik at Hastings 66-67 and won when Botvinnik lost a rook to a cheapo. Perhaps stung by this defeat, the great man later expressed the opinion that Keene was just a hacker whilst Basman was a player of creative original positional ideas. As a consequence Keene abandoned openings like the Benoni.

Arguably he fell into a positional opening trap against Botvinnik. In this position



He played the plausible 8. a4 directed against Black playing .. b5. Black however responds by playing 8. .. a5 moving the same pawn twice in succession but gaining control of b4 for a Knight and later c5 if White advances with d4-d5.

Engines think White is fine if just equal.

Keene appears to have been the first to play 8. a4 despite the .. a6 line being known since at least the 1955 Interzonal when played by Bronstein.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 10364
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Nice 74

Post by JustinHorton » Mon May 10, 2021 9:46 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:29 am
O.G. Urcan wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 6:09 am
That text by Raymond Keene is a copy-paste from his Petrosian book of 15
years ago.
I suppose we could have guessed that the material was recycled.
That reminds me, I've never got round to researching Becoming A Grandmaster, which I've had suggested to me is an early example of recycling.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Geoff Chandler
Posts: 3486
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:36 pm
Location: Under Cover

Re: Nice 74

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am

Hi Olimpiù,

I do not have that Petrosian book, I have P.H. Clarke's who needs another if you own that one.

This is what is so disappointing about Ray. Why do it, he is skilled enough to re-write
and update his previous stuff. He must know any lazy slip like this is bound to be caught
All it would have taken was a mention: 'As I wrote in...." and plug his book. (actually surprised he didn't, he plugged other books.)

I can only offer he must enjoy baiting the 'Keene watchers' and gets some perverse joy
about still being the main attraction. I do despair of him of sometimes.

(I wonder if he dislikes me and does it because he enjoys putting me on a spit for others to turn.
Surely not. I do not need any help in self-skewering myself, not only in posting, you should see my games.)

I enjoy swimming against the tide, but when faced with a tsunami of evidence..in this post I'm not waving**

I just read most of the link you added. It appears a lot Ray's of bad reports were not as bad as he makes them out to be.
(I mentioned I did not recall any really bad ones - 'OK or OK'ish'.)

I've been on that Edward Winter page before and just scrolled past the Keene part.
Probably thinking the same old same old, the massive ink war between Keene and Winter gone digital.
However it did re-tweak something I read when I saw the name 'Holt.'

Another RDK link coming up. Justin - look away now!

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1387837

"my opponent was incredibly pissed off at the end of the game. in spite of the length
of the game-somewhat artificially expanded by my opponents dogged refusal to
resign-this was the british championship i won where the reporter for the
bcm ritson morry accused me of short draws!"

I was there ages ago looking for Eric Holt games, he was the club champion of the Edinburgh club
on a number of occasions. (Why can't Ray be as clear as that in his Article Column?)

I'm still up for 'Forgive and forget' Though it appears Ray can't, even if in most part I now see it's imagined!
He really is his own worst enemy. Why Ray? Why?

But kudos to me for posting it, if not it may have slipped through the net. Do I get a Keene Watchers badge?

**'I was much too far out all my life , And not waving but drowning.' Florence Margaret Smith, 1902 – 1971.