Yeah but also Chandler played board 4 also, as did Yusupov and Fedorwitz (sic?) pretty stiff competition that low down in the team.Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 3:23 pmMaybe that could "ideally" have had Mestel instead of Flear (who only played a couple of games)MJMcCready wrote: ↑Wed May 05, 2021 1:59 amThanks, interesting to know what the motives for plying are under such circumstances, leads me to wonder what the strongest ever England team was. 86 maybe?
And given how close they actually got.....
Nice 74
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Re: Nice 74
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Re: Nice 74
Hi Juston,JustinHorton wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 8:11 pm
Forty years of misconduct, and forty years of toadying. In some ways the second is more interesting than the first, and more damning.
I know nothing about the 40 years of interesting and damning toadying.
'Misconduct' that is probably the plagiarism thing for which Ray has paid for both in pocket and reputation.
He did the crime and served the time. So forgive and forget. He blundered. Move on.
Re-hashing his old material is exasperating (why? when he can write most other chess writers off the board)
Maybe he thinks this is so good it's needs repeating and cannot think of anyway to improve it.
The thread topic is about an incident over '50 years' ago.
Working on a flawed system to slip a GM/IM norm into a back pocket was and still is....the norm.
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Re: Nice 74
Yes you do.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:55 pmI know nothing about the 40 years of interesting and damning toadying.
Did he indeed.
No, you move on. You're the one who finds it necessary to link to his new pieces and to make excuses for his old and newer sins. Stop doing it. It's tawdry and embarrassing.
Can he indeed.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 12:55 pmwhen he can write most other chess writers off the board
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Nice 74
Hi Justin,
Honestly I know nothing about the 40 years of interesting and damning toadying.
(and again to be honest, I'm not too sure what interesting toadying is. It's sounds fascinating.)
I'm not making excuses for his "...old and newer sins." (what newer sins have been committed?)
I simply pointed out in this instance Ray is not the only player to take advantage of the loop holes in the norm system.
As for plagiarism. No excuse was offered. He was guilty and punished.
And I like his writing style above some other writers, surely I am allowed my own opinion.
Apparently others do too, I'm not the only one posting an occasional link to the his piece in 'The Article'
He has written a book load of articles, I think I have linked to three maybe four, maybe less, I really don't count them.
Honestly I know nothing about the 40 years of interesting and damning toadying.
(and again to be honest, I'm not too sure what interesting toadying is. It's sounds fascinating.)
I'm not making excuses for his "...old and newer sins." (what newer sins have been committed?)
I simply pointed out in this instance Ray is not the only player to take advantage of the loop holes in the norm system.
As for plagiarism. No excuse was offered. He was guilty and punished.
And I like his writing style above some other writers, surely I am allowed my own opinion.
Apparently others do too, I'm not the only one posting an occasional link to the his piece in 'The Article'
He has written a book load of articles, I think I have linked to three maybe four, maybe less, I really don't count them.
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Re: Nice 74
Yes you do.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 6:54 pmHonestly I know nothing about the 40 years of interesting and damning toadying
Yes you are.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 6:54 pmI'm not making excuses for his "...old and newer sins."
No you didn't. You disingenuously pretended that it was about "the loop holes in the norm system" when in fact it was about David Anderton making a disgraceful secret deal with one team member at the expense of another, which you defended.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 6:54 pmI simply pointed out in this instance Ray is not the only player to take advantage of the loop holes in the norm system.
Except by you, by downplaying it on any number of occasions
When and in what way? The detail is important here.
Stop whining man, nobody is preventing you from having an opinion, they are just questioning its basis
That's true, Ray's mate who fraudulently claims to be "His Serene Highness" is also a big admirer. What a crew.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Nice 74
RDK is a "lovable rogue" and that gets him kid glove treatment from quite a few people.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)
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Re: Nice 74
There's something in that, at least in so far as he's funny in his way, whereas his cronies and suck-ups aren't. But ultimately he isn't lovable, he's quite unpleasant and some of what he's got up to is quite serious and nasty, and the kid gloves aren't a result of what he's done as such, they're a result of the habits of the people who don them. It's not that they don't see, it's that they prefer not to look.
That's the thing about any figure whose misconduct is spread over a long period of time. They tell a story about themselves, of course they do, but they also shed light on the society in which they operate, and which to a greater or lesser extent lets them get away with it. So the story of Ray Keene, from Nice (or earlier) up to today, is also the story of English chess, and it's not a flattering one: and that's basically why it unsettles some people to have it told, and why they would like it forgotten.
That's the thing about any figure whose misconduct is spread over a long period of time. They tell a story about themselves, of course they do, but they also shed light on the society in which they operate, and which to a greater or lesser extent lets them get away with it. So the story of Ray Keene, from Nice (or earlier) up to today, is also the story of English chess, and it's not a flattering one: and that's basically why it unsettles some people to have it told, and why they would like it forgotten.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Nice 74
Hi Justin,
I really do not have any idea what you mean by: '40 years of interesting and damning toadying'
Perhaps if you cite an example I might but you seem to have dodged that one.
Also when I asked about his 'newer sins' again complete silence.
Yet I am being told I know what you mean and am making up excuses
for newer sins that I know nothing about. I don't. I really don't.
Please tell me what it is I know so I can discover if I knew it or not.
In that respect I cannot answer anymore of your questions
till I know what on earth it is I am meant to know.
I did not ' disingenuously pretend' it was about loop holes in the system.
I viewed it as just another incident that is rife in the norm system.
"..it was about David Anderton making a disgraceful secret deal with
one team member at the expense of another, which you defended."
As I just said, 'I viewed it as just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
Perhaps the offended party should have walked out forcing Ray to the board
and complained to FIDE about what was happening, then FIDE might has looked
more closely at how they were dishing out titles. A chance to close one loop hole was lost.
Instead the same player was back again two years later under the same captain.
It appears two years is enough time to let it go. Yet here we are....47 years later.
..it was about David Anderton making a disgraceful secret deal..."
That will be the David Anderton OBE, OBE awarded for services to British Chess.
No need to be so harsh on such a respected figure because he did what he thought
was correct at the time. Bring home one of the team with a certain GM norm.
In hindsight perhaps the wrong decision, or perhaps not, it worked!
As I said before '... just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
I really do not have any idea what you mean by: '40 years of interesting and damning toadying'
Perhaps if you cite an example I might but you seem to have dodged that one.
Also when I asked about his 'newer sins' again complete silence.
Yet I am being told I know what you mean and am making up excuses
for newer sins that I know nothing about. I don't. I really don't.
Please tell me what it is I know so I can discover if I knew it or not.
In that respect I cannot answer anymore of your questions
till I know what on earth it is I am meant to know.
I did not ' disingenuously pretend' it was about loop holes in the system.
I viewed it as just another incident that is rife in the norm system.
"..it was about David Anderton making a disgraceful secret deal with
one team member at the expense of another, which you defended."
As I just said, 'I viewed it as just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
Perhaps the offended party should have walked out forcing Ray to the board
and complained to FIDE about what was happening, then FIDE might has looked
more closely at how they were dishing out titles. A chance to close one loop hole was lost.
Instead the same player was back again two years later under the same captain.
It appears two years is enough time to let it go. Yet here we are....47 years later.
..it was about David Anderton making a disgraceful secret deal..."
That will be the David Anderton OBE, OBE awarded for services to British Chess.
No need to be so harsh on such a respected figure because he did what he thought
was correct at the time. Bring home one of the team with a certain GM norm.
In hindsight perhaps the wrong decision, or perhaps not, it worked!
As I said before '... just another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
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Re: Nice 74
I can't posibly convey how much contempt I have for that attitude and how corrupting it is.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:43 pm
That will be the David Anderton OBE, OBE awarded for services to British Chess.
No need to be so harsh on such a respected figure because he did what he thought
was correct at the time.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Nice 74
One of the Scottish players once sat out the remaining Olympiad rounds to safeguard an IM Norm. There was some criticism at the time, but it was defended on the grounds that an additional Scottish IM was of more value to chess in Scotland than improving a few places in a mid table finish. I don't quite recall when, but probably at least forty years ago.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:43 pmjust another incident that is rife in the norm system.'
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Re: Nice 74
Couldn't agree more.JustinHorton wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 1:16 pmI can't posibly convey how much contempt I have for that attitude and how corrupting it is.Geoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 12:43 pmThat will be the David Anderton OBE, OBE awarded for services to British Chess.
No need to be so harsh on such a respected figure because he did what he thought
was correct at the time.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.
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Re: Nice 74
Hi Roger,
The old way, qualify for a candidates and you got the GM title was best way.
(though even then there was a bit of sleight of hand going on).
But it too late now. I could see why FIDE changed it, a new GM title came with media attention
in that players country. (as you mentioned) Good publicity for chess. But the awful term 'weak GM.' has sneaked in.
Good luck to them all, they fulfilled the criteria as laid down by FIDE.
In most cases the result of dedication and hard work
Some may have speeded up the inevitable award with a bit playing the system,
I suspect (strongly suspect) If I had the chance to get a GM title I'd do anything to avoid a last round nervous game.
I might not seek it but if offered I'd grab it with both hands....and ride out the storm...47 years later.
Hi Justin,
I think you may have misread me. My remark was not a poke at David.
It was more of hint that you seem to be getting carried away.
You stating David in '... making a disgraceful secret deal.' was uncalled for.
I'm sure David never thought of the full consequences when the decision was made.
Yes Bill should have been consulted, 'disgraceful' is too harsh, IMO, can we settle on mistaken.
You do not seem to care how wide you cast your net in this crusade you have v Ray Keene.
No need to insult such respected figure, as David, for an incident which was all but forgotten.
But now I have your attention:
'40 years of interesting and damning toadying' explain?
The old way, qualify for a candidates and you got the GM title was best way.
(though even then there was a bit of sleight of hand going on).
But it too late now. I could see why FIDE changed it, a new GM title came with media attention
in that players country. (as you mentioned) Good publicity for chess. But the awful term 'weak GM.' has sneaked in.
Good luck to them all, they fulfilled the criteria as laid down by FIDE.
In most cases the result of dedication and hard work
Some may have speeded up the inevitable award with a bit playing the system,
I suspect (strongly suspect) If I had the chance to get a GM title I'd do anything to avoid a last round nervous game.
I might not seek it but if offered I'd grab it with both hands....and ride out the storm...47 years later.
Hi Justin,
I think you may have misread me. My remark was not a poke at David.
It was more of hint that you seem to be getting carried away.
You stating David in '... making a disgraceful secret deal.' was uncalled for.
I'm sure David never thought of the full consequences when the decision was made.
Yes Bill should have been consulted, 'disgraceful' is too harsh, IMO, can we settle on mistaken.
You do not seem to care how wide you cast your net in this crusade you have v Ray Keene.
No need to insult such respected figure, as David, for an incident which was all but forgotten.
But now I have your attention:
'40 years of interesting and damning toadying' explain?
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Re: Nice 74
Absolutely spare meGeoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:48 pmYou do not seem to care how wide you cast your net in this crusade you have v Ray Keene.
No need to insult such respected figure
It's funny how you want to remember all the things you like but everything embarassing gets filed under "forgotten". This is exactly why it is a good idea to remember.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
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Re: Nice 74
Hi Justin,
You have to remember that I've lived in Scotland since 1975, my first glimpse of English Chess and what was
going was in 2009 when I joined here. Up until then I had only read the Keene v WInter letters in CHESS.
(I think even B.H.Wood was fed up with the two of them, recall him saying this is the last time!)
These were about historic mistakes made by Ray and Edward's frustration.
I do visit Winter's site and have his books so from there I picked up more mentions of the 'occasional' Keene mistakes.
I also got from the Winter site all the details about Ray's plagiarism.
Ray was duly punished by embarrassment (which he seems to shrug off), he lost his job as a columnist
and a financial settlement was paid to injured party. (do not know if it was by Ray or the publisher).
To me that is job done - he won't do it again.
I know all about the instant book in 1978 and Tal actually showing I think it was Murray Chandler a copy of the text Ray just sent off.
OOPS! (that bit is not mention in the 1978 book - good book!)
That's it. I know there are other things knocking about, I've seen the hints, but I honestly know nothing about them.
(I'd be careful here, please give me a link. I'll read it/them - after I finishing listening to the Hibs game - it's halftime 1-0 to Hibs. )
I'm open minded to shift my view, but you will understand if I prefer to read about it from a 3rd or 4th party.
I do know I like his writing style, I also like his shrug the shoulders attitude, (regarding his cut and pasting and rehashing)
of which I cracked more than just a few jokes. The loveable rogue tags seems to fit, he appears to be Mr Marmite.
I cannot understand (A) him for doing it and (B) why people get so upset about it.
I also like his games. When starting out I was warned, Tarrasch was dogmatic and Keene was stodgy.
It took me a few years to find out I loved Tarrasch's games and Ray Keene's game were anything but stodgy.
But you are right I am flippant in these matters. Sometimes too flippant.
But better this way IMO than worry about small matters from eon's ago.
I'd like to continue, but it has to be kept calm.
We may have both crossed a line here. I apologise if you took me wrong for calling you out over it.
Right where were we?
Bill played again under David in 1976 so I'd say he had drawn a line under it.
But yes, Bill should have been in on it. David upon being told Ray had a cast iron draw in the last round
would have just been thinking that coming home with a cert of GM norm would be good for the team.
(speculation that bit, but I can see no other reason than this was a genuine error of judgement.)
And I cannot fault Ray, he arranged the deal, (apparently) but as I have already said, now thinking about it.
in the same position I would have done the same as have quite a other few players in the nervous 90's.
Although I like to think I would have asked Bill first. (I would have) He too seems an easy going type of guy,
I suspect upon being in the loop he may have gone along with it. An 'OK Ray but you owe me one.' type of thing.
Hibs 2-0 up!
You have to remember that I've lived in Scotland since 1975, my first glimpse of English Chess and what was
going was in 2009 when I joined here. Up until then I had only read the Keene v WInter letters in CHESS.
(I think even B.H.Wood was fed up with the two of them, recall him saying this is the last time!)
These were about historic mistakes made by Ray and Edward's frustration.
I do visit Winter's site and have his books so from there I picked up more mentions of the 'occasional' Keene mistakes.
I also got from the Winter site all the details about Ray's plagiarism.
Ray was duly punished by embarrassment (which he seems to shrug off), he lost his job as a columnist
and a financial settlement was paid to injured party. (do not know if it was by Ray or the publisher).
To me that is job done - he won't do it again.
I know all about the instant book in 1978 and Tal actually showing I think it was Murray Chandler a copy of the text Ray just sent off.
OOPS! (that bit is not mention in the 1978 book - good book!)
That's it. I know there are other things knocking about, I've seen the hints, but I honestly know nothing about them.
(I'd be careful here, please give me a link. I'll read it/them - after I finishing listening to the Hibs game - it's halftime 1-0 to Hibs. )
I'm open minded to shift my view, but you will understand if I prefer to read about it from a 3rd or 4th party.
I do know I like his writing style, I also like his shrug the shoulders attitude, (regarding his cut and pasting and rehashing)
of which I cracked more than just a few jokes. The loveable rogue tags seems to fit, he appears to be Mr Marmite.
I cannot understand (A) him for doing it and (B) why people get so upset about it.
I also like his games. When starting out I was warned, Tarrasch was dogmatic and Keene was stodgy.
It took me a few years to find out I loved Tarrasch's games and Ray Keene's game were anything but stodgy.
But you are right I am flippant in these matters. Sometimes too flippant.
But better this way IMO than worry about small matters from eon's ago.
I'd like to continue, but it has to be kept calm.
We may have both crossed a line here. I apologise if you took me wrong for calling you out over it.
Right where were we?
Bill played again under David in 1976 so I'd say he had drawn a line under it.
But yes, Bill should have been in on it. David upon being told Ray had a cast iron draw in the last round
would have just been thinking that coming home with a cert of GM norm would be good for the team.
(speculation that bit, but I can see no other reason than this was a genuine error of judgement.)
And I cannot fault Ray, he arranged the deal, (apparently) but as I have already said, now thinking about it.
in the same position I would have done the same as have quite a other few players in the nervous 90's.
Although I like to think I would have asked Bill first. (I would have) He too seems an easy going type of guy,
I suspect upon being in the loop he may have gone along with it. An 'OK Ray but you owe me one.' type of thing.
Hibs 2-0 up!
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Re: Nice 74
Uh huhGeoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 5:45 pmBill played again under David in 1976 so I'd say he had drawn a line under it.
Yes I'm sure he had no idea that Hartston had any interest in a normGeoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 5:45 pmDavid upon being told Ray had a cast iron draw in the last round would have just been thinking that coming home with a cert of GM norm would be good for the team. (speculation that bit, but I can see no other reason than this was a genuine error of judgement.)
What can you doGeoff Chandler wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 5:45 pmBut yes, Bill should have been in on it....And I cannot fault Ray, he arranged the deal, (apparently)
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."
lostontime.blogspot.com