English Chess Forum

The Chess Arbiters Association documents its interpretations of the Laws of Chess in the following documents: http://www.chessarbitersassociation.co.uk/Laws2018.pdf

The following is an excerpt concerning defaulting for absence:

6.7.1 The regulations of an event shall specify a default time in advance. If the default time is not specified, then it is zero. Any player who arrives at the chessboard after the default time shall lose the game unless the arbiter decides otherwise.
6.7.2 If the regulations of an event specify that the default time is not zero and if neither player is present initially, White shall lose all the time that elapses until he arrives, unless the regulations of an event specify or the arbiter decides otherwise.
In Britain the National Associations have said that this default time is automatically amended to 30 minutes for normal games and 10 minutes for Rapidplay games unless the entry form says otherwise.
The actual start time, rather than the scheduled start time should be used to determine if a player has defaulted

However, when I search the ECF website, I can turn up only the following two documents:

• https://www.englishchess.org.uk/ecf-competition-rules/
• https://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading ... ent-rules/

Neither of those pages mention the default default time as described in the CAA interpretations.

Which is odd, as I distinctly remember that the ECF website did indeed use to carry a page which did specify a default default time.

Have I missed something on the website?
Has the ECF changed its position, leaving the CAA trailing behind?
The ECF has gone to a policy of defaulting on absence from the board at the start of the time, unless tournaments specify otherwise?
There is indeed still a default default time, as given by the CAA, but it got dropped of the ECF website?

Any thoughts here?

Searching the ECF website, using its search box, returns one interesting result, namely the page titled "English Chess Federation Tournament Rules", but dated 4th January 2016. The current version of that page, which says that the rules are effective from November 2017, however, does not appear to say anything on the matter.

Paul McKeown wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 am

There is indeed still a default default time, as given by the CAA, but it got dropped of the ECF website?

A drafting error on the ECF site? Even FIDE have dropped zero time defaults.

No idea, Roger. I'm rather puzzled.

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:21 am

Even FIDE have dropped zero time defaults.

That is only partially true. In practice zero time defaults have of course disappeared, but Rules Commission did manage to slip "If the default time is not specified, then it is zero" into the version of the Laws applicable from 1.7.2017.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:31 am

but Rules Commission did manage to slip "If the default time is not specified, then it is zero" into the version of the Laws applicable from 1.7.2017.

I expect the ECF just copied that when updating in 2017, without remembering that the CAA had already imposed or promised a national exemption.

But that's a possible problem for the new Home Director and the ECF. If there's a rule conflict between what the CAA write and what the ECF write, who prevails?

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:53 am

But that's a possible problem for the new Home Director and the ECF. If there's a rule conflict between what the CAA write and what the ECF write, who prevails?

The tournament director. As always.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:31 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:21 am

Even FIDE have dropped zero time defaults.

That is only partially true. In practice zero time defaults have of course disappeared, but Rules Commission did manage to slip "If the default time is not specified, then it is zero" into the version of the Laws applicable from 1.7.2017.

Nick's version is almost the reverse of what happened, or so I've been told. The wording was devised to allow non-zero default times without alerting the less aware that it was no longer an automatic zero default.

On the other matter, the CAA published this some time ago when it had been agreed with the previous ECF Chief Arbiter. When it was discovered that it was not actual ECF policy it was removed but reinstated again when I was told that it was now official ECF policy.
It did appear on the ECF website at the time.

Michael Farthing wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:09 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:53 am

If there's a rule conflict between what the CAA write and what the ECF write, who prevails?

The tournament director. As always.

Always ?

Not so. If the tournament (event) rules try to alter the Laws of Chess, as distinct from rules, this will normally render all games ECF ungradable and FIDE unrateable.

Alex McFarlane wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:33 am

Nick's version is almost the reverse of what happened, or so I've been told. The wording was devised to allow non-zero default times without alerting the less aware that it was no longer an automatic zero default.

I think you are looking at the cumulative effect of two sets of changes. The first, the PB influenced shambles which came into force on 1.7.14, allowed organisers to do whatever they liked regarding default times. Rules Commission always resented this and got a default default time of zero reintroduced from 1.7.17. I pointed out at the meeting that this did not reflect what actually happened in almost any tournament but this was not well received.

E Michael White wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:54 am

Michael Farthing wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:09 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:53 am

If there's a rule conflict between what the CAA write and what the ECF write, who prevails?

The tournament director. As always.

Always ?

Not so. If the tournament (event) rules try to alter the Laws of Chess, as distinct from rules, this will normally render all games ECF ungradable and FIDE unrateable.

Well yes indeed. As would failure to follow the rules regarding gradeability (eg inappropriate times). It remains the tournament directors decision, however. Just because the tournament is not graded does not mean that a game of chess has not happened.

However, I was actually meaning that if the rules (I meant the rules) are ambiguous (or even if they are not) what the tournament (ie the director or the arbiter) decides is in practice what happens.

I think this one is quite simple - the CAA didn't update its webpage. It is not clear that the ECF agreed this in the first place, perhaps one official wrote and agreed it on the ECF's behalf. But if it did, the ECF thought that the matter was a decision of the Organiser as of 2017, and not a matter the ECF should be interfering in.

It is now included in FIDE's Guidelines for Organisers, introduced in 2017 - it isn't really a decison that is arbiter-based at all.

Alex, with all respect due to your position within the world of arbiting and the ECF, I am sure that the ECF actually used to state a default default time on its website, which was as stated by the CAA. It might well be that I am wrong and my memory is mistaken, but I would take a little more than an ex cathedra pronouncement to be convinced. Why am I so convinced? When deciding a couple of years ago what to put on Richmond Juniors' tournament entry forms, I read what the ECF said on its website, and as the default default time was covered chose deliberately to say nothing about the matter. Clearly, I now have to re-examine the matter.

Paul McKeown wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:53 pm

I am sure that the ECF actually used to state a default default time on its website, which was as stated by the CAA.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on that point. What I am saying is that the rules changed in 2017, so the ECF updated its rules on the website. The CAA would appear not to have done.

Paul McKeown wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:53 pm

Alex, with all respect due to your position within the world of arbiting and the ECF, I am sure that the ECF actually used to state a default default time on its website, which was as stated by the CAA. It might well be that I am wrong and my memory is mistaken

No, you are not mistaken. I printed out the page at the time (actually just over 4 pages) and added it to my arbiting loose leaf folder along with the FIDE Laws of Chess and other league stuff. If it will help your sanity I can scan it in and post.

The relevant part was as follows

English Chess Federation Tournament Rules dated 1st September, 2016 wrote:Section A: Regulations applying to all events

1) The organizer will state a time control within the limits specified by Appendix A1 of the Laws of Chess

2) Unless the organizer specifies otherwise on the entry form, the Default time under Law 6.7 shall be 30 minutes for a Standard-play game and 10 minutes for a Rapidplay game.