ECF Competition Rules

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Post Reply
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:55 pm

Here's something that's been sneaked out on the website without any direct discussion or publicity, not even a highlight on the official forum. It's sandwiched between the routine update of the Grand Prix positions and the news item about the launch of the ECF Chess Academy.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/

Some points of clarification are needed though. The "phones in bags" rule is quoted, but does this only apply to FIDE rated events? If not, expect vocal complaints from league players.

I thought it long established that players wishing to use descriptive notation were free to do so, even in FIDE rated competitions, their difficultly coming if they ran into a disputed 50 move or three fold repetition claim.
ECF Competition Rules wrote:Appendix G, part 5 requires skills of both players and arbiters and its possible use must be specifically announced if it is to apply.
I would have thought it the expectation that such a rule (previously 10.2) would always apply and that if not applied, that is the exception that should be announced. On one time it was a condition of grading that such a provision be applied in quick play finishes.

E Michael White
Posts: 1420
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by E Michael White » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:25 pm

Could be related to this thread:-
http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 89#p169089

or this from FIDE which will come as a culture shock to the Director of Home Chess, Chief Arbiter and Arbiters at W/E events.
https://www.fide.com/component/content/ ... lysis.html

Brian Towers
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:49 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Here's something that's been sneaked out on the website without any direct discussion or publicity, not even a highlight on the official forum. It's sandwiched between the routine update of the Grand Prix positions and the news item about the launch of the ECF Chess Academy.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/
I think you've missed the biggy:
ECF Competition Rules wrote:Section A: Regulations applying to all events

1) The organiser will state a time control within the limits specified by Appendix A1 of the Laws of Chess.
FIDE Laws of Chess wrote:A.1
A ‘Rapidplay’ game is one where either all the moves must be completed in a fixed time of more than 10 minutes but less than 60 minutes for each player; or the time allotted plus 60 times any increment is of more than 10 minutes but less than 60 minutes for each player.
Which suggests that all chess governed by the ECF will be rapidplay!
Roger de Coverly wrote:Some points of clarification are needed though. The "phones in bags" rule is quoted, but does this only apply to FIDE rated events? If not, expect vocal complaints from league players.
I think the FIDE amendment is very clear:
FIDE Amendment to 11.3b wrote:However, the rules of the competition may allow such devices to be stored in a player’s bag, as long as the device is completely switched off.
It is up to leagues to specify what is permitted in this respect and how the whole subject of mobile phones is handled.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
ECF Competition Rules wrote:Appendix G, part 5 requires skills of both players and arbiters and its possible use must be specifically announced if it is to apply.
I would have thought it the expectation that such a rule (previously 10.2) would always apply and that if not applied, that is the exception that should be announced. On one time it was a condition of grading that such a provision be applied in quick play finishes.
The CAA publishes a version of the FIDE Laws of Chess with annotations indicating its interpretation particularly with respect to chess played within the British Isles. It says this:
Chess Arbiters Association wrote:If an event is not using incremental times it must declare that this appendix applies (it is the default option in Britain) or a loss on time will normally equate to a loss.
You are quite right that pre July 2014 the default was that 10.2 applied. Post July 2014 the situation is different:
FIDE Laws of Chess wrote:G.2 Before the start of an event it shall be announced whether this Appendix shall apply or not.
G.3. This Appendix shall only apply to standard play and rapidplay games without increment and not to blitz games.
It looks like the CAA in their annotations and now the ECF are spelling out the implications of G.2
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:35 pm

Brian Towers wrote: Which suggests that all chess governed by the ECF will be rapidplay!
I don't know where you get that from. The ECF established, or perhaps it was the BCF, that games up to 60 minutes would be graded as rapidplay, but slower than that was normal play. The difference to FIDE is that there is no minimum game length beyond the hour, or its deemed equivalent with increments.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:45 pm

E Michael White wrote:Could be related to this thread:-
Indeed it could, but what was wrong with publishing an initial draft and inviting comments on the "official" forum, with a view to having it rubber stamped by representatives of English chess organisations at the April Council meeting?

The 4NCL and Hastings might be able to establish a process of putting phones in bags, although the London Classic didn't seem to make these available. It's not going to happen at League and County matches, or even most Congresses.

NickFaulks
Posts: 8453
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:01 am

E Michael White wrote: or this from FIDE which will come as a culture shock to the Director of Home Chess, Chief Arbiter and Arbiters at W/E events.
https://www.fide.com/component/content/ ... lysis.html
Could you explain? I considered posting this but could find nothing of interest in it.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:18 am

I am pleased to see the appearance of a document that details ECF Competition rules. It is long overdue. However, for it to have any standing it should be formally identified as an ECF Regulation, endorsed by the Board and ratified by Council. Until it is formally adopted I would suggest that it be marked as "draft for discussion".

The fact that it has been published on the ECF website is, I believe, an invitation for the wider chess community to comment.

The document itself is not easy to read as lacks adequate title headings and guidance to the reader on each of the specific rules. To my mind the ECF Competition Rules should be a stand alone document detailing the rules that supplement the FIDE document and provide relevant detailed references. As currently presented it is impossible for the reader to understand its content without having a copy of the FIDE Laws of Chess readily available. It needs redrafting.

The ECF have no technical commissions (i.e. standing committees) to draft and review ECF Regulations save the Governance Committee which is intended for a different purpose. A suitable committee should be convened to undertake drafting of the Competition Rules. It should draw its members from across the Chess community: League and Tournament organisers, senior players, junior organisers, Chess Unions and Clubs.

The Chess Arbiters's Association has no formal standing with regards ECF Regulations although it is understandable that many Arbiters rely on its guidance. The relationship between the ECF and CAA needs to formally established.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:07 am

Michael Flatt wrote: To my mind the ECF Competition Rules should be a stand alone document
Therein would lie disaster!
The Laws of Chess in England are the Laws written by FIDE, but FIDE, intelligently (yes.. yes I know nothing that FIDE does can, by definition, be called intelligent, but nevertheless..), explicitly draws a distinction between laws that are laws, laws that may be varied to suit local cicumstances and laws that may be varied but not in FIDE rated events. The document supplied fills out the details for a further category: not FIDE rated, but ECF graded. It also reaffirms that in FIDE rated events FIDE provisions apply. It is necessary to refer back to the FIDE document because if the FIDE rules vary we would expect that the ECF regulations would vary in sync. We do not want a position where there will be disputes arising because of contradiction between the two documents. A cursory glance at only a few Acts of Parliament will show the extreme care that legal draughtsmen apply to this very problem - and with good reason!

I agree that there are probably wording improvements that could be made (though the clear division into FIDE events, ECF events, and non ECF events that are to be ECF graded resolves most of the alleged ambiguities mentioned so far in this thread). I see nothing in the document that significantly contradicts the current general understanding of what is or is not prescriptive and nothing at all that seems to add any restrictions. There are areas where tournament directors are, sensibly, encouraged to make some definitions clear (eg playing area and playing venue). Some statements codify generally accepted relaxations (eg the permissability of permitting descriptive notation - though not, note, the permissability of descriptive notation, which is a different thing).

It is also the case that the published document states quite clearly that it comes into force next September. I am quite sure that well considered suggested amendments have every chance of success in the meantime.

This document is surely needed and valuable. It has clearly been written with the aim of allowing continued local choices within the constraint that it should not undermine the standing of the grading system. Surely we should be applauding, supporting it while also offering constructive criticism. Phrases like 'sneaked in' - because something is announced on the front page of a website rather than in a forum that is barely read - are not helpful.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:35 am

Michael Flatt wrote:
The fact that it has been published on the ECF website is, I believe, an invitation for the wider chess community to comment.
It is presented as a regulation to be followed, not a draft for discussion, or a document to be approved at the next Council meeting. One presumes it has been approved by the rest of the Board, although there's nothing to indicate this.

The format of the ECF website encourages it, but it had slipped to third place in the list of items because of the continued presence of the request for applicants for CEO and Chairman of Governance. I spotted it only because I scrolled down. The presentation is one of something that you have to publish, but hope no one notices.

The English Chess Federation forum is rarely visited. If the ECF won't use it for announcements potentially affecting every player in the country, is that a surprise?

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:53 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: It is presented as a regulation to be followed, not a draft for discussion, or a document to be approved at the next Council meeting. One presumes it has been approved by the rest of the Board, although there's nothing to indicate this
It is presented as follows:
The ECF is regularly asked about whether or not certain changes to the Laws of Chess are permitted in order for a competition to be graded. Therefore, a set of competition rules is being published that sets out the variances tolerated for these purposes. It also includes information stored separately on various other documents in order to unite all of this information in one place.
This is therefore intended as a codification of current procedures and published for information. I am not one for side-stepping Council, but to require its approval for such a step is beyond even my desire for anwerability. But, Roger, if there are aspects that cause you concern then why not put together and gather support for a motion to the April Council meeting?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:58 am

Michael Farthing wrote:But, Roger, if there are aspects that cause you concern then why not put together and gather support for a motion to the April Council meeting?
#

I am sure you are aware that the Council structure makes it next to impossible for individual members of the ECF to get issues onto the Agenda.

There is still an important unanswered question where the document goes well beyond current practice.

Is it the intention that the phone in a bag rule should apply to events classified as ECF graded only? That's something where organisations running such events would need an answer.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:21 am

Roger de Coverly wrote: I am sure you are aware that the Council structure makes it next to impossible for individual members of the ECF to get issues onto the Agenda.
No, it does not. It makes it impossible if an individual member does not put effort into first winning support for his/her ideas from those with the power to submit motions - as is right and proper. You have a wide variety of people that you could try and convince.
There is still an important unanswered question where the document goes well beyond current practice.

Is it the intention that the phone in a bag rule should apply to events classified as ECF graded only? That's something where organisations running such events would need an answer.
I see no change from current practice here. As in large parts of Europe, the conventions and relaxations (lesser penalties.. if it is found that a player [but with no requirements that an arbiter should try and seek out such a player]) have effectively ensured that this is not a serious issue. These conventions and relaxations are indicated in the document.

However, worryingly, the document explicitly states that a tournament organiser may apply for relaxations to the Director of Home Chess. Now, I accept, that probably does go beyond current practice!!!! It further says that such relaxations might in future be incorporated into the document! Heaven forfend!

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21301
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:43 am

Michael Farthing wrote: I see no change from current practice here.
Current practice in Leagues and Congresses, outside of those FIDE rated and run or heavily influenced by the ECF, has been that the "old" rule of switching the phone off has continued to be followed and no requirements are imposed about where the switched off phone should be kept or placed. I'm asking whether this continues. If it doesn't then local County organisations will have to change their rules. Unlike the ECF, many organisations require such rule changes to pass through an AGM voting process.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:50 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Michael Flatt wrote: The fact that it has been published on the ECF website is, I believe, an invitation for the wider chess community to comment.
It is presented as a regulation to be followed, not a draft for discussion, or a document to be approved at the next Council meeting. One presumes it has been approved by the rest of the Board, although there's nothing to indicate this.
The document records existing ECF practice. It might have arisen out of the complaint that got escalated to three separate FIDE commissions and which provoked the Arbiters' Commission to write to the ECF and advise them to follow existing FIDE regulations. One difficulty FIDE had was trying to establish what national regulations ECF was applying at the British Championships. This document seems to respond to that observation.

The SCCU will hold an executive meeting in advance of the ECF Council meeting where items such as the Competition Rules can be discussed. At least we have sight of the document which will allow meaningful discussion to take place. There is ample opportunity to provide its author with comments and suggestions to improve it.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: ECF Competition Rules

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:53 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Here's something that's been sneaked out on the website without any direct discussion or publicity, not even a highlight on the official forum. It's sandwiched between the routine update of the Grand Prix positions and the news item about the launch of the ECF Chess Academy.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/grading/ ... ion-rules/
So, what actually is the official process for reviewing and accepting the proposed Competition Rules?
Surely, it can't just be sufficient for the Director of Home Chess to publish a document and say these are the new rules?
Have the Chess Arbiters Association (CAA) expressed a view on this document and would it matter if they disagreed with any of its content?

Post Reply