English Chess Forum

What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

Robin Williams wrote:What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

As in previous years, leagues calculate their dues and send in the game fee payment once the league is over (minus any monies paid on account in December).

Sean Hewitt wrote:

Robin Williams wrote:What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

As in previous years, leagues calculate their dues and send in the game fee payment once the league is over (minus any monies paid on account in December).

I was expecting the ECF to send me a bill for game fees due for this season in September. If I'm expected to calculate the amount due myself, how do I find out if any players were members under the old membership scheme, with a membership that expired mid-season, but haven't taken out a membership under the new scheme (meaning that some of their games may be exempt from game fee and others won't be exempt)?

Ian Thompson wrote:

Sean Hewitt wrote:

Robin Williams wrote:What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

As in previous years, leagues calculate their dues and send in the game fee payment once the league is over (minus any monies paid on account in December).

I was expecting the ECF to send me a bill for game fees due for this season in September. If I'm expected to calculate the amount due myself, how do I find out if any players were members under the old membership scheme, with a membership that expired mid-season, but haven't taken out a membership under the new scheme (meaning that some of their games may be exempt from game fee and others won't be exempt)?

Quite.

I think leagues need to be invoiced soon after submission of results in order that they can chase clubs and so that clubs can chase players. (Of course, players may subsequently choose to sign up for ECF membership and the amount owing from the league will change.)

Angus French wrote: I think leagues need to be invoiced soon after submission of results in order that they can chase clubs and so that clubs can chase players.

Is this time of year the best time for that to happen, or are the ECF Office busy with other matters?

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:

Angus French wrote: I think leagues need to be invoiced soon after submission of results in order that they can chase clubs and so that clubs can chase players.

Is this time of year the best time for that to happen, or are the ECF Office busy with other matters?

I believe it's the best time. The ECF should have consideration for leagues and clubs (and their needs for collection of the fees). (FWIW, it used to be the case that on receipt of the results for an event, the grading team would confirm acceptance or not and provide a list of members and a list of non-members.)

The pertinent question is: does the ECF have a process in place for invoicing leagues under the new membership scheme?

Sean Hewitt wrote:

Robin Williams wrote:What is the timetable for sending out bills to clubs and leagues for their ECF game fees this autumn?

As in previous years, leagues calculate their dues and send in the game fee payment once the league is over (minus any monies paid on account in December).

However, that is not what it says on the ECF web-site http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membersh ... p-game-fee for winter leagues.
Quote: "In each case, the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August." In other words the web-site says that the ECF will calculate and invoice the fee due.

Since the grading feedback no longer includes a summary of games played by members and non-members it may not be easy for a league to calculate its liability. In any case many leagues will have relied on the guidance (above) given by the ECF.

Gerry_Jepps wrote:Quote: "In each case, the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August." In other words the web-site says that the ECF will calculate and invoice the fee due.

It cannot be done any other way. According to the rules of the scheme, it is possible for individuals to backdate membership until the end of August.

Under the scheme for 2011-12 and earlier years where if the League wasn't an MO and didn't have any players claiming to be members of an MO somewhere, you just had to count the number of games played in your league. That you could finalise once the competitions finished and you could make a good guess of the likely count in the previous December.

Angus French wrote: The pertinent question is: does the ECF have a process in place for invoicing leagues under the new membership scheme?

In the days of the MO schemes, non MO border areas like Manchester had perpetual problems. Someone volunteered to spend some time at the ECF Office checking Game Fee payments and discovered that notwithstanding that the ECF had created the problem for itself by allowing the MO system, nothing had been done to make it work properly.

So have they sorted it out? The Farthing proposal had the merit that it bought a year before the problems of invoicing non-members would bite, but are systems in place? The inability to detect lapsed membership for the purposes of distorting Counties Championship results suggests they aren't.

Gerry_Jepps wrote:However, that is not what it says on the ECF web-site http://www.englishchess.org.uk/membersh ... p-game-fee for winter leagues.
Quote: "In each case, the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August." In other words the web-site says that the ECF will calculate and invoice the fee due.

You need to read the whole document (or at least, the whole of the section). Let me help you:-

Winter Leagues – Estimated Game Fee liability to be paid by 15 January;
Summer Leagues - Estimated Game Fee liability to be paid by 30 June.
In each case, the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August. Immaterial adjustments will be incorporated into the following December’s payment; material adjustments will be settled within 30 days of invoice.

This is exactly as it was before. Estimate of game fee paid in January, with the actual calculation done after results are submitted for grading. Immaterial adjustments either way carried forward to the following season. Only where there is a material adjustment has the ECF said that an invoice will be raised.

Gerry_Jepps wrote:Since the grading feedback no longer includes a summary of games played by members and non-members it may not be easy for a league to calculate its liability. In any case many leagues will have relied on the guidance (above) given by the ECF.

If leagues have relied on the guidance above they will have already paid their estimated game fee liability and put in place a mechanism for calculating which games were played by members and which by non-members. I know of a number of leagues that have done just that.

Angus French wrote:The pertinent question is: does the ECF have a process in place for invoicing leagues under the new membership scheme?

Indeed it is, and the answer is that it does.

Sean Hewitt wrote:This is exactly as it was before.

What isn't as before is that you don't know the exact amount payable and won't know until September.

Particularly if the Game Fee exceeds £ 12 per player, there's no point in paying it as you might as well make them members.

Sean Hewitt wrote:This is exactly as it was before.

Except it isn't.

a) The grading team no longer provide the membership information that in previous seasons made the game fee calculation trivial.
b) The words on the the ECF web-site say that the actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August. Let me help you. This means that the ECF will calculate the amount due and send out a statement of the amount owing at the end of August (after taking into account any monies paid in December/January).
c) As you quite correctly quoted, the document then goes on to say that immaterial adjustments can be incorporated into the December payment but that material adjustments should be paid within 30 days of invoice. Let me help you again. This means that the ECF first issues an invoice.

Leagues that have relied on (and trusted) the ECF guidance are quite entitled to wait for their invoice. The guidance document has been on the web-site for a whole season. You can't now pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

Gerry_Jepps wrote: c) As you quite correctly quoted, the document then goes on to say that immaterial adjustments can be incorporated into the December payment but that material adjustments should be paid within 30 days of invoice. Let me help you again. This means that the ECF first issues an invoice.

It is no doubt possible for individual leagues and counties to write a system to calculate Game Fee under the new rules. The ECF may or may not have a system able to calculate and document Game Fee game by game. In the event of the league and ECF not agreeing, a line by line comparison would be needed.

If the ECF are expecting payment in July, they need to be able to tell leagues and counties how much they are expecting and which half games it applies to. Let's not forget that the ECF's scheme didn't get 75% support. I cannot imagine that counties who had boards defaulted in the Counties Championship are feeling particularly generous to the ECF.

Gerry_Jepps wrote:

Sean Hewitt wrote:This is exactly as it was before.

Except it isn't.

a) The grading team no longer provide the membership information that in previous seasons made the game fee calculation trivial.
b) The words on the the ECF web-site say that the actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August. Let me help you. This means that the ECF will calculate the amount due and send out a statement of the amount owing at the end of August (after taking into account any monies paid in December/January).
c) As you quite correctly quoted, the document then goes on to say that immaterial adjustments can be incorporated into the December payment but that material adjustments should be paid within 30 days of invoice. Let me help you again. This means that the ECF first issues an invoice.

Leagues that have relied on (and trusted) the ECF guidance are quite entitled to wait for their invoice. The guidance document has been on the web-site for a whole season. You can't now pretend it doesn't mean what it says.

I'm afraid I didn't understand Sean's response either. I read 'the non-MO’s actual Game Fee liability will be calculated and invoiced at the end of August', saw no obvious qualifications and thought that would be it.

What would be really helpful - for leagues, clubs and, I think, ultimately the ECF - would be for an indicative invoice to be sent soon after a results submission is submitted and accepted. Then leagues/clubs/players would be in a good position to decide whether players should join up and to collect game fee payments. Perhaps a second indicative invoice could be sent at the end of the membership year and then a final invoice, say, a month after that.

For what it's worth, my club has yet to be invoiced for two internal events for which results were submitted and accepted on 6 June.

Angus French wrote: What would be really helpful - for leagues, clubs and, I think, ultimately the ECF - would be for an indicative invoice to be sent soon after a results submission is submitted and accepted.

I would suspect they haven't actually written the system yet. It's non trivial as the Game Fee calculation has to compare the date of game against membership expiry dates for those transferred from the previous scheme who haven't renewed on the new scheme. The specification or delivery of the results system for the Counties Championship got it wrong as Kent found to their cost.

Leagues, counties and clubs are going to want the totals of the £ 2 per game broken down by club and player.