ECF AGM 2022

[Chris Goodall]

If you want your child to play FIDE-rated chess, you have to cover the cost to the ECF of your child's playing FIDE-rated chess.

What is that cost?

€1 per tournament. Plus a contribution towards getting our FIDE arbiters licensed, since if there were no Gold members we wouldn't need any FIDE arbiters, and the cost of the office's time sending results to FIDE and getting FINs.

[John Upham]

If you want your child to play FIDE-rated chess, you have to cover the cost to the ECF of your child's playing FIDE-rated chess.

What is that cost?

€1 per tournament. Plus a contribution towards getting our FIDE arbiters licensed, since if there were no Gold members we wouldn't need any FIDE arbiters, and the cost of the office's time sending results to FIDE and getting FINs.

Is it entirely possible to run a FIDE rated event without the presence of a FIDE arbiter. However, if that event is classified as a norm seeking event and satisfies the international criteria then an FA or IA is required.

It is therefore possible to run a FIDE event with almost all ENG players with only an ECF arbiter.

One question: what is stopping ECF (and other) county matches being FIDE rated? I'd like to know the actual reasons rather than the "we don't have a FIDE arbiter" non-reason.

[Roger de Coverly]

One question: what is stopping ECF (and other) county matches being FIDE rated? I'd like to know the actual reasons rather than the "we don't have a FIDE arbiter" non-reason.

At least one obvious reason is the extra cost to all participants who are not already Gold members. Lack of arbiters is also a perfectly good reason. Generally speaking county matches are played under conditions of "no arbiter present".

[NickFaulks]

Generally speaking county matches are played under conditions of "no arbiter present".

Roger, I know I have asked this several times before, but can you point me to the regulation which says this is relevant?

[John Upham]

At least one obvious reason is the extra cost to all participants who are not already Gold members. Lack of arbiters is also a perfectly good reason. Generally speaking county matches are played under conditions of "no arbiter present".

The current list of ECF arbiters has around 230 names (https://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-cont ... h-2022.pdf)

Getting one of these to an ECF County match should probably not be too taxing.

The Gold membership thing is the substantive point both MBP and TPW alluded to at the AGM.

What other barriers might there be apart from unwillingness on the part of the organisers to make the required effort?

[Roger de Coverly]

Getting one of these to an ECF County match should probably not be too taxing.

Just one more headache and expense for those organising county matches. What would happen if no arbiter is available? Call the match off?

[Roger de Coverly]

Roger, I know I have asked this several times before, but can you point me to the regulation which says this is relevant?

Perhaps more to the point, is it possible to have FIDE rated games without changing any of the current conditions under which club and county matches are played? If not, what are the minimum requirements?

[NickFaulks]

What would happen if no arbiter is available? Call the match off?

Roger, I know I have asked this several times before, but can you point me to the regulation which says this is relevant?

[NickFaulks]

Perhaps more to the point, is it possible to have FIDE rated games without changing any of the current conditions under which club and county matches are played? If not, what are the minimum requirements?

Why do you ( and, to be fair, most other people in English chess who talk about FIDE's requirements ) have such a rooted objection to reading the regulations yourself?

[Roger de Coverly]

Why do you ( and, to be fair, most other people in English chess who talk about FIDE's requirements ) have such a rooted objection to reading the regulations yourself?

Some of it comes down to interpretation. In the past, the ECF for example interpreted the phrase that now says "registered with" to mean "member of" in the sense of member of a Company limited by guarantee.

The FIDE rules at https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/F ... 202022.pdf appear not to require the presence of an arbiter for games to be rated. Is that a correct interpretation?

The ECF rules at https://www.englishchess.org.uk/arbiters/ecf-arbiters/ state

FIDE Arbiter Regulations will continue to be in force for FIDE-rated events, specifically —

All arbiters working at a FIDE-rated event must be FIDE licensed arbiters

Does that mean there must be an arbiter at a FIDE-rated event or only that if there is an arbiter they have to be FIDE licensed?

[IM Jack Rudd]

The latter. That regulation uses what logicians call the "weak reading"; all does not imply at least one.

[NickFaulks]

Some of it comes down to interpretation.

No it doesn't. The regulations are intended to mean what they say.

In the past, the ECF for example interpreted the phrase that now says "registered with" to mean "member of" in the sense of member of a Company limited by guarantee.

That was indeed a spectacularly stupid "interpretation", as a single moment of rational thought would have made clear to anyone. If that was too much to expect, they could have asked.

The FIDE rules at https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/F ... 202022.pdf appear not to require the presence of an arbiter for games to be rated. Is that a correct interpretation?

No, it is not an interpretation of any sort. It is what they say.

The ECF rules at https://www.englishchess.org.uk/arbiters/ecf-arbiters/ state

FIDE Arbiter Regulations will continue to be in force for FIDE-rated events, specifically —

All arbiters working at a FIDE-rated event must be FIDE licensed arbiters

Does that mean there must be an arbiter as a FIDE-rated event or only that if there is an arbiter they have to be FIDE licensed?

You seem to be questioning whether the author of the Arbiter Regulations has a proper command of English. I have no reason to doubt that.

[Alex McFarlane]

There must be an NA to sign off the event in my opinion.

While that person does not have to be at the event, they should be available to make any decisions.

If an ECF only arbiter made the decision then a player would be entitled to complain and, in theory, the event would not be eligible for FIDE rating.
Where the organiser would stand when players requested their entry fee and other costs reimbursed as they had been induced to enter under false pretenses might make an interesting court case!!

Far better, and cheaper, to use an NA.

I think that all recently qualified ECF arbiters are also registered as NAs with FIDE.

[Roger de Coverly]

There must be an NA to sign off the event in my opinion.

While that person does not have to be at the event, they should be available to make any decisions.

So in the context of a league or county match there DOES need to be an arbiter for the games to be FIDE rated, So we are back to the interpretation that if there isn't an arbiter, the games cannot be FIDE rated. That the arbiter doesn't have to be present in person was established some while back.

County matches are usually four hour sessions, but for evening leagues to be FIDE rated they have to choose between banning players over 2400 or telling both them and their opponents that the games would not be FIDE rated.

[Chris Goodall]

Does that mean there must be an arbiter as a FIDE-rated event or only that if there is an arbiter they have to be FIDE licensed?

You seem to be questioning whether the author of the Arbiter Regulations has a proper command of English. I have no reason to doubt that.

Either interpretation would rule out John's idea of getting games FIDE rated by having an ECF arbiter attend. (If that were not already ruled out by ECF arbiters' having better things to do.)

Suppose there is a theoretical way that we could run FIDE rated events more cheaply than we do, and thereby reduce the Gold member rate. (Not by enough to merge it with Silver, because FIDE rating still comes at a cost.) We'd have to create a new "24-Carat Gold" membership for people who need the full service, FIDE arbiters included.