Chief Executive 2021

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.

Chief Executive 2021

Mike Truran
51
62%
Malcolm Pein
25
30%
None of the above
6
7%
 
Total votes: 82

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:36 am

John Reyes wrote:
Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:12 pm
Can i asked what would happen to the Pif funds when it is spend if development officers was picked

Also can sponsorship fund it? Or will the members have to paid for it?

Angus might know
I have learnt to always replace the word "sponsorship" with "magic money tree". It isn't a thing. What can we offer sponsors? Chess players resent "branding" or any attempt to get them to purchase something they don't need, and no-one watches visuals of chess being played. The only money is in laundering the reputations of crooks and dictators by naming an event after them 😮

As Roger says, if we have development officers foisted on us, the Permanent Invested Fund will become a Temporary Invested Fund, and then a Permanently Empty Fund.
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:18 am

What's your point? You don't want ECF members' money going towards international chess (fair enough - a lot of people don't) but you're opposed to attracting sponsorship as well. Yes, there is little obvious gain for sponsors investing in chess but the same is true of companies like Coca Cola and Heineken who pump millions into football and other sports. It's about name association and/ or altruism.

However the other point is very valid. The capital in the Permanent Invested Fund and the John Robinson Trust can only be spent once. One it's gone, it's gone. It does seem that one of the issues in this election is a campaign to "get" this money so that big one off spends can be made. I have to admit I view this with some disquiet.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:58 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:18 am
What's your point? You don't want ECF members' money going towards international chess (fair enough - a lot of people don't) but you're opposed to attracting sponsorship as well. Yes, there is little obvious gain for sponsors investing in chess but the same is true of companies like Coca Cola and Heineken who pump millions into football and other sports. It's about name association and/ or altruism.
You're in the neighbourhood of the truth with all of that. If spending on international chess took account of the gender-neutral nature of mind sports, I'd be happy spending twice the amount on it - unfortunately we aren't even allowed to know the current breakdown by gender. I'm not opposed to attracting sponsorship, I think it's been promised for the last 20 years and never appeared, and so I would assume that anything planned to be funded by sponsors will end up being funded by members.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:52 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:18 am
However the other point is very valid. The capital in the Permanent Invested Fund and the John Robinson Trust can only be spent once. One it's gone, it's gone. It does seem that one of the issues in this election is a campaign to "get" this money so that big one off spends can be made. I have to admit I view this with some disquiet.
Which is reasonable. But although bequests can only be spent once, the Chess Trust could expect to receive more of them in the future. I don't wish to distress forumites, so, being delicate, most English chess players are of an age where it is prudent to make a will.

I'm not opposed to one off spends in principle. We don't want the BCF to die a rich miser. But seems fair to ask for evidence that the money spent will not be wasted. "Once in a generation" speechifying is ok, but not enough.

Personally I am very unconvinced by the development officer idea at the moment. My position when it was approved a few years ago was that I was unconvinced it would work, but I hoped I was wrong, and the investment to find out seemed justified. But the amount of infighting attempting to appoint one caused was enormous. So something I would be reluctant to see the ECF trying again. There are things I am am happy for my membership money to be spent on, but regular extensive disputes processes isn't one.

If another organisation - CSC, Friends of Chess, NCCU, whoever -demonstrated success I'd probably change my mind.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:29 am

It might be better to ditch the investments, which (due to the market) produce very little return, and invest the money in a property that could be a national chess centre.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:04 am

"The only money is in laundering the reputations of crooks and dictators by naming an event after them 😮"

Not necessarily, advertising, tax relief, and indeed altruism come into it.

Sometimes a guilty party can be blackmailed into sponsoring events, or they can offer a bribe in return for a not-guilty verdict.

The argument about the John Robinson money (which was an altruistic donation) goes back many years. My understanding was that it was left for "chess", but it was quickly hijacked by a small group who insisted it should be used just for junior chess, and (from memory) they seemed unwilling to produce any accounts or say what they were doing - the usual BCF secrecy. Other bequests just seemed to disappear or create huge arguments.

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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Angus French » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:04 am
"The only money is in laundering the reputations of crooks and dictators by naming an event after them 😮"

Not necessarily, advertising, tax relief, and indeed altruism come into it.

Sometimes a guilty party can be blackmailed into sponsoring events, or they can offer a bribe in return for a not-guilty verdict.

The argument about the John Robinson money (which was an altruistic donation) goes back many years. My understanding was that it was left for "chess", but it was quickly hijacked by a small group who insisted it should be used just for junior chess, and (from memory) they seemed unwilling to produce any accounts or say what they were doing - the usual BCF secrecy. Other bequests just seemed to disappear or create huge arguments.
Hmm... I'm doubtful that's correct. For one thing the John Robinson Youth Chess Trust is a registered charity and as such has to submit annual accounts and returns etc. See here.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:28 am

Also, as wills are public documents, anyone could check the terms of the will, if they were minded to.
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Mick Norris
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:33 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:29 am
It might be better to ditch the investments, which (due to the market) produce very little return, and invest the money in a property that could be a national chess centre.
I would doubt that would be allowed

National Chess Centre - a big row about where it should be located
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Alex McFarlane
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:39 am

Angus French wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am
Hmm... I'm doubtful that's correct
Most definitely NOT correct.
It is also used to support the British Championships and junior participation at Hastings, two things which John held dear to his heart.

I believe the Trustees hold the independence of these funds close to their hearts too.

Without sounding too much like an American politician, I knew John, and although I had no idea he had so much money or that he was going to leave it to chess (and his church), we had several conversations (which I thought hypothetical) on how he would have liked to promote chess. I firmly believe that the Trustees are following his wishes.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:49 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:04 am
My understanding was that it was left for "chess", but it was quickly hijacked by a small group who insisted it should be used just for junior chess
What did happen was that it was noted that if the money was put into a charity, there would be more of it because of savings on inheritance tax. The disadvantage of this or possibly advantage was that the money was no longer available for the BCF to spend on pet projects.

In around the same era, David Norwood made a sizeable donation out of business profits. That was also set up as a charity, but with the intention that the money be spent on junior chess until it ran out, as indeed happened.

Contemporary discussion and comment can be found in the SCCU archive.

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:01 am

Angus French wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am
the John Robinson Youth Chess Trust is a registered charity and as such has to submit annual accounts and returns etc. See here.
Which is the one Kevin mentioned, although I meant The Chess Trust which is also there

I did not know John Robinson personally, but happy to hear from Alex he thinks that charity is operating as he would have liked since that seems right and proper.

I think the Chess Trust has a slightly wider discretion, and can effectively do what it likes with a broadly similar sized pot, provided it is charitable.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:01 am
I did not know John Robinson personally, but happy to hear from Alex he thinks that charity is operating as he would have liked since that seems right and proper.
The will stipulated that £ 10,000 a year (or was it at least £ 10,000 a year?) should be put into the British Championship Congress. I cannot know the original intention in detail, but had supposed that it was intended a a form of permanent sponsorship, to defray expenses, pay enhanced prizes etc. Spending it nearly exclusively on junior coaching which would probably not previously have taken place seems to distort that objective.

Wadih Khoury
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Wadih Khoury » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:37 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:36 am

What can we offer sponsors? Chess players resent "branding" or any attempt to get them to purchase something they don't need, and no-one watches visuals of chess being played. The only money is in laundering the reputations of crooks and dictators by naming an event after them 😮

I am sure others can bring more ideas to the table, but as I see it, chess sponsoring brings at least a couple of things:
  • Associate your brand with a "serious" and "intellectual" activity. In some countries it can be associated with other notions like "elite" or "perfect gentleman".
  • Increase brand awareness with your future employees by funding the junior end of the spectrum. Junior chess players tend to be from ambitious professional backgrounds that are likely to be profiles of interest for some companies
Per example, in France I saw the Boston Consulting Group finance the creation of a new junior chess club in Paris. They gave hard cash to pay coaches, but also offer some head office space on Saturdays.
In England, we are lucky (or unlucky depending on the point of view) to have a thriving banking and consulting industry. Many of these companies, if properly approached, could also finance the chess circuit at little cost to them while increasing their visibility with potential future employees.

Chess tournaments and clubs in many other countries find private sponsorship, so surely we have something to offer back to them.

And that's before even getting into public sponsorship. I am still amazed how local council abroad offer their amazing historical town halls for a chess tournament (gaining visibility and tourists), but here they would rather keep their assets unused rather than give it for free to an activity that cause little disruption and has an overall positive image.
Just thinking of my own little town, if I were to organise a 50 player tournament, surely that would attract about 100 people to the town for 2 days, that will spend in local supermarkets and restaurants and maybe even hotels. And the council could brag about organising a chess tournament and encouraging children development, etc...

I am not a marketing guy, so I am sure someone could have worded the above much better than I would, so please focus on the essence of the message (there is money out there, and people do find benefits in funding us) rather than my convoluted word smithing.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Chief Executive 2021

Post by Nick Burrows » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:40 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:33 am
National Chess Centre - a big row about where it should be located
It's obvious to most of us that it should be in Bolton.

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