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Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm
by Mike Gunn
While it is possible to obtain an approximation to some of the information John is after by writing a computer script to process an old masterlist I think there has always been some doubt about the accuracy of the club information on that list. For example I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious. There is also no way of knowing (from the masterlist) whether a player who played some games last years actually played those games in a club competition or for the club in a league versus playing in a congress.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm
by Ian Thompson
Mike Gunn wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm
I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious.
I think they did - under the old grading system it was 3 years with no results recorded against a club and it was dropped. The new grading system lists "Clubs played at in last 36 months." Definitely dubious though. For example, a player might be recorded by a congress organiser as being from a club they no longer played for.
Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:17 pm
by Brian Valentine
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm
Mike Gunn wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm
I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious.
I think they did - under the old grading system it was 3 years with no results recorded against a club and it was dropped. The new grading system lists "Clubs played at in last 36 months." Definitely dubious though. For example, a player might be recorded by a congress organiser as being from a club they no longer played for.
Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.
The nominal club is that referred to in the membership application and can be changed on request.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:52 pm
by Mick Norris
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm
Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.
By contrast, quite useful for me, as it is the club I have been a member of since 1987, and am Treasurer of, but haven't played for in years
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm
by Richard Bates
Roger Lancaster wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 7:12 am
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 11:42 pm
You've missed the bolded bit in the quote.
Well, yes, I'll grant you that it's always useful knowing who's alive and who's dead. But that doesn't seem to be the main purpose of any exercise such as that proposed.
No but it was the main purpose of the (ironic) context for the use of the word "useful". Which is the question that you posed.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm
by Andrew Zigmond
Angus French wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 9:28 pm
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 8:25 pm
Angus French wrote: ↑Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Clubs are crucial part of the competitive chess-playing infrastructure but are barely supported by the ECF.
What support would you like?
First, the support currently provided that I’m aware of is:
- a club directory on the ECF website to help players find clubs
- arranging of insurance
- Club of the year awards
What I’d like to see:
- The appointment of an officer with responsibility for club engagement
- Construction of an email directory of club contacts to provide a means for engagement with clubs and, beyond that, with players who aren’t ECF members or supporters (it's maybe a little off track but one thing I’d like the ECF to do is to survey players to ask them how they perceive the ECF and what they want out of the ECF)
- Regular communication with clubs, e.g. with a quarterly newsletter
- Provision of advice and materials to assist with facets of club management including how to construct a club website, how to publicise a club locally, how to appeal to and support new players, how to find sponsorship, how to find a good venue...
Up to a point I actually agree with much of this. However the ECF can only support clubs if a) the club is willing to work with the ECF (some will, some won't) and b) the club is willing to accept change in order to attract new members and if necessary make changes they don't necessarily want as a condition of the ECF's support (again some will, some won't). Alternatively the ECF could fund their own bespoke clubs along specific lines and all local organisers need to do is be prepared to run things at ground level - this could easily work alongside a more traditional set up locally.
However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.
Of course the ECF board and ultimately the ECF itself are ultimately the servants, rather than the masters, so it shouldn't be beyond the wit of those with a mandate to represent individual members to consult with progressive organisers, draw up a proposal (even if it isn't costed at this stage) and force it on to the agenda at council.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm
However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.
Was not that more to do with the appointment process rather than the job description?
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10450
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 8:52 pm
by Andrew Zigmond
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm
However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.
Was not that more to do with the appointment process rather than the job description?
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10450
That's irrelevant to my point, which was that the ECF tried to put something in place that would develop chess only for the appointed individual to be hounded out of the job in short order.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sat May 08, 2021 9:13 pm
by Paul Cooksey
I'm not sure describing what happened as a pile on or saying hounded out is accurate. It felt more like a battle between England's chess administrators and their mortal enemy, England's chess administrators.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 8:13 pm
by John Foley
Let's put the question another way. Suppose a wealthy individual wanted to set up a European Super Chess League and desired to include the top four clubs by size/strength, which English clubs (not teams) would be vying to apply?
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:28 am
by MartinCarpenter
Three C's for starters, I would think. Both strong in considerable depth and absolutely genuinely the product of a single club.
Harder to think otherwise without knowing precisely how tightly you want to define clubs (or enough about how it actually works down South/in London!).
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:08 pm
by Chris Goodall
Oh, give it here.
If you click on
https://www.ecfrating.org.uk/v2/new/lis ... _code=XXXX, the first number you see is the number of active players.
Code: Select all
Coulsdon CF 593
Barnet Knights 257
Richmond Juniors 247
Barnet Juniors 246
Maidenhead Junior 173
Battersea 130
Hendon 107
Richmond & Twickenham 105
Hammersmith 104
Harrow 102
3Cs 97
Wanstead 91
York RI 88
Uxbridge 88
Newham 87
Watford 85
Ealing 84
Wimbledon 81
Norwich Juniors 77
Solihull 75
Hackney 72
Surbiton 72
Guildford 71
Cowley 71
St Albans 71
Petts Wood & Orpington 70
Hallfield School 67
Chester 66
Liverpool 66
Athenaeum 65
Alwoodley 65
Crowthorne 64
Pimlico 62
Broadland 62
Wilsons School 61
Sheffield 61
Bury St Edmunds 61
Kings Head 60
Streatham 59
Hastings & St Leonards 59
Maidenhead 58
Bolton 58
South Birmingham 56
Lewisham 56
Forest Hall 56
Wallasey 54
Bradford 54
Oxford University 53
Greater London CC 52
Hall, The (Middlesex) 51
Heywood 51
West Bridgford 50
Cavendish 50
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm
by IM Jack Rudd
Well, that list is an excellent illustration of the population density of London, if nothing else.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:25 pm
by Adam Raoof
As Martin said upthread, it depends how you define club. Coulsdon runs a lot of events and I suspect there is a lot of double counting - I doubt if they have that many bone fide members, just as I know the figure for Hendon is misleading.
Re: Chess clubs by size
Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:27 pm
by Chris Goodall
IM Jack Rudd wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm
Well, that list is an excellent illustration of the population density of London, if nothing else.
I thought that
John Foley wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 1:22 pm
ii) strength index (number of members x average rating per member)
The number of members cancels out. Your metric is the total grade of everyone in the club added together.
So instead, I ranked all the clubs by the grade of their 10th-strongest player (EDIT - added Wood Green):
Code: Select all
Wood Green 2500
Hendon 2305
Battersea 2275
Cavendish 2275
Hackney 2268
Sandhurst 2260
Richmond & Twickenham 2245
Muswell Hill 2193
Guildford 2185
Oxford University 2178
Coulsdon CF 2170
Hammersmith 2163
3Cs 2155
Athenaeum 2155
Streatham 2148
Kings Head 2140
Wimbledon 2103
Sheffield 2103
Cambridge City 2103
Ealing 2088
Surbiton 2088
South Birmingham 2088
Bury St Edmunds 2080
Hastings & St Leonards 2080
York RI 2073
Lewisham 2073
Witney 2073
Solihull 2065
Petts Wood & Orpington 2058
Pimlico 2058
Downend & Fishponds 2050
UCL 2050
Bradford 2043
Imperial College London 2043
Wanstead 2028
Bedford 2020
Chester 2013
Greater London CC 2013
Atticus 2013
Bristol & Clifton 2013
Reading 2005