Chess clubs by size

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Mike Gunn
Posts: 1014
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Mike Gunn » Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm

While it is possible to obtain an approximation to some of the information John is after by writing a computer script to process an old masterlist I think there has always been some doubt about the accuracy of the club information on that list. For example I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious. There is also no way of knowing (from the masterlist) whether a player who played some games last years actually played those games in a club competition or for the club in a league versus playing in a congress.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 3543
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm
I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious.
I think they did - under the old grading system it was 3 years with no results recorded against a club and it was dropped. The new grading system lists "Clubs played at in last 36 months." Definitely dubious though. For example, a player might be recorded by a congress organiser as being from a club they no longer played for.

Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.

Brian Valentine
Posts: 574
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Brian Valentine » Sat May 08, 2021 2:17 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm
Mike Gunn wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 1:58 pm
I don't think the grading team has ever published the criteria for removing a club listed against an individual player on the list and I recall Richard Haddrell stating that some of the club information was dubious.
I think they did - under the old grading system it was 3 years with no results recorded against a club and it was dropped. The new grading system lists "Clubs played at in last 36 months." Definitely dubious though. For example, a player might be recorded by a congress organiser as being from a club they no longer played for.

Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.
The nominal club is that referred to in the membership application and can be changed on request.

Mick Norris
Posts: 10310
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Mick Norris » Sat May 08, 2021 4:52 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 2:13 pm
Under the new grading system there's a "nominal club". I don't know how that's determined. For me, it's not the club I currently play for; it's a former club.
By contrast, quite useful for me, as it is the club I have been a member of since 1987, and am Treasurer of, but haven't played for in years :)
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Richard Bates
Posts: 3338
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:27 pm

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Richard Bates » Sat May 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:12 am
Richard Bates wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 11:42 pm
You've missed the bolded bit in the quote.
Well, yes, I'll grant you that it's always useful knowing who's alive and who's dead. But that doesn't seem to be the main purpose of any exercise such as that proposed.
No but it was the main purpose of the (ironic) context for the use of the word "useful". Which is the question that you posed.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 2073
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm

Angus French wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:28 pm
NickFaulks wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:25 pm
Angus French wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:59 pm
Clubs are crucial part of the competitive chess-playing infrastructure but are barely supported by the ECF.
What support would you like?
First, the support currently provided that I’m aware of is:
- a club directory on the ECF website to help players find clubs
- arranging of insurance
- Club of the year awards

What I’d like to see:
- The appointment of an officer with responsibility for club engagement
- Construction of an email directory of club contacts to provide a means for engagement with clubs and, beyond that, with players who aren’t ECF members or supporters (it's maybe a little off track but one thing I’d like the ECF to do is to survey players to ask them how they perceive the ECF and what they want out of the ECF)
- Regular communication with clubs, e.g. with a quarterly newsletter
- Provision of advice and materials to assist with facets of club management including how to construct a club website, how to publicise a club locally, how to appeal to and support new players, how to find sponsorship, how to find a good venue...
Up to a point I actually agree with much of this. However the ECF can only support clubs if a) the club is willing to work with the ECF (some will, some won't) and b) the club is willing to accept change in order to attract new members and if necessary make changes they don't necessarily want as a condition of the ECF's support (again some will, some won't). Alternatively the ECF could fund their own bespoke clubs along specific lines and all local organisers need to do is be prepared to run things at ground level - this could easily work alongside a more traditional set up locally.

However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.

Of course the ECF board and ultimately the ECF itself are ultimately the servants, rather than the masters, so it shouldn't be beyond the wit of those with a mandate to represent individual members to consult with progressive organisers, draw up a proposal (even if it isn't costed at this stage) and force it on to the agenda at council.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm
However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.
Was not that more to do with the appointment process rather than the job description?
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10450

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 2073
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat May 08, 2021 8:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 8:48 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm
However I would push back one point. Prior to the pandemic the ECF was trying to do something similar by appointing a chess development officer and those of us who actually have memories will know that no sooner was somebody appointed than they were subjected to a vicious online pile on that led to their resignation after several weeks.
Was not that more to do with the appointment process rather than the job description?
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10450
That's irrelevant to my point, which was that the ECF tried to put something in place that would develop chess only for the appointed individual to be hounded out of the job in short order.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat May 08, 2021 9:13 pm

I'm not sure describing what happened as a pile on or saying hounded out is accurate. It felt more like a battle between England's chess administrators and their mortal enemy, England's chess administrators.

John Foley
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:58 am
Location: Kingston-upon-Thames
Contact:

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by John Foley » Wed May 12, 2021 8:13 pm

Let's put the question another way. Suppose a wealthy individual wanted to set up a European Super Chess League and desired to include the top four clubs by size/strength, which English clubs (not teams) would be vying to apply?

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3041
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun May 16, 2021 9:28 am

Three C's for starters, I would think. Both strong in considerable depth and absolutely genuinely the product of a single club.

Harder to think otherwise without knowing precisely how tightly you want to define clubs (or enough about how it actually works down South/in London!).

User avatar
Chris Goodall
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun May 16, 2021 9:08 pm

Oh, give it here.

If you click on https://www.ecfrating.org.uk/v2/new/lis ... _code=XXXX, the first number you see is the number of active players.

Code: Select all

Coulsdon CF		593
Barnet Knights		257
Richmond Juniors	247
Barnet Juniors		246
Maidenhead Junior	173

Battersea		130
Hendon			107
Richmond & Twickenham	105
Hammersmith		104
Harrow			102

3Cs			97
Wanstead		91
York RI			88
Uxbridge		88
Newham			87

Watford			85
Ealing			84
Wimbledon		81
Norwich Juniors		77
Solihull		75

Hackney			72
Surbiton		72
Guildford		71
Cowley			71
St Albans		71

Petts Wood & Orpington	70
Hallfield School	67
Chester			66
Liverpool		66
Athenaeum		65

Alwoodley		65
Crowthorne		64
Pimlico			62
Broadland		62
Wilsons School		61

Sheffield		61
Bury St Edmunds		61
Kings Head		60
Streatham		59
Hastings & St Leonards	59

Maidenhead		58
Bolton			58
South Birmingham	56
Lewisham		56
Forest Hall		56

Wallasey		54
Bradford		54
Oxford University	53
Greater London CC	52
Hall, The (Middlesex)	51

Heywood			51
West Bridgford		50
Cavendish		50
Last edited by Chris Goodall on Mon May 17, 2021 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Donate to Sabrina's fundraiser at https://gofund.me/aeae42c7 to support victims of sexual abuse in the chess world.

Northumberland webmaster, Jesmond CC something-or-other. Views mine. Definitely below the Goodall Line.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4815
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford
Contact:

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm

Well, that list is an excellent illustration of the population density of London, if nothing else.

User avatar
Adam Raoof
Posts: 2720
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: NW4 4UY
Contact:

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Adam Raoof » Sun May 16, 2021 10:25 pm

As Martin said upthread, it depends how you define club. Coulsdon runs a lot of events and I suspect there is a lot of double counting - I doubt if they have that many bone fide members, just as I know the figure for Hendon is misleading.
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chess England Events - https://chessengland.com/
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Don’t stop playing chess!

User avatar
Chris Goodall
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Chess clubs by size

Post by Chris Goodall » Sun May 16, 2021 10:27 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm
Well, that list is an excellent illustration of the population density of London, if nothing else.
I thought that :wink:
John Foley wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:22 pm
ii) strength index (number of members x average rating per member)
The number of members cancels out. Your metric is the total grade of everyone in the club added together.

So instead, I ranked all the clubs by the grade of their 10th-strongest player (EDIT - added Wood Green):

Code: Select all

Wood Green		2500
Hendon			2305
Battersea		2275
Cavendish		2275
Hackney			2268

Sandhurst		2260
Richmond & Twickenham	2245
Muswell Hill		2193
Guildford		2185
Oxford University	2178

Coulsdon CF		2170
Hammersmith		2163
3Cs			2155
Athenaeum		2155
Streatham		2148

Kings Head		2140
Wimbledon		2103
Sheffield		2103
Cambridge City		2103
Ealing			2088

Surbiton		2088
South Birmingham	2088
Bury St Edmunds		2080
Hastings & St Leonards	2080
York RI			2073

Lewisham		2073
Witney			2073
Solihull		2065
Petts Wood & Orpington	2058
Pimlico			2058

Downend & Fishponds	2050
UCL			2050
Bradford		2043
Imperial College London	2043
Wanstead		2028

Bedford			2020
Chester			2013
Greater London CC	2013
Atticus			2013
Bristol & Clifton	2013

Reading			2005
Last edited by Chris Goodall on Mon May 17, 2021 12:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
Donate to Sabrina's fundraiser at https://gofund.me/aeae42c7 to support victims of sexual abuse in the chess world.

Northumberland webmaster, Jesmond CC something-or-other. Views mine. Definitely below the Goodall Line.

Post Reply