Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.

Would you be willing to play in ECF-graded hybrid events?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:54 pm

a) Definitely. They would bring players together safely, encourage ECF membership renewals and reduce travelling costs.
7
18%
b) No. Hybrid games would not be normal, so I would wait until over-the-board chess is back.
27
68%
c) Maybe. I'd be willing to try hybrid events and see if they work.
6
15%
 
Total votes: 40

David Sedgwick
Posts: 5249
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon
Contact:

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:30 pm

TimWall wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:21 pm
David, with all due respect (and bearing in mind the phrase, "[He/she] who does not learn the lessons of history is doomed to repeat it") online playing servers in 2020 have solved virtually all the problems faced by telephone matches in the 1950s-70s. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.

The problem we have to solve is here and now, not in the dim and distant past. If we don't organise chess activities that keep the members paying their dues, how will the ECF survive?

I like nostalgic trips down memory lane as much as the next person, but can they wait a bit until we have solved our current crisis? Just a thought :)
It's early days yet, but perhaps you should look at the results of your own poll.

I have responded to three posts on this thread, including your initial one, by providing relevant information.

I would be quite willing to stop responding to your posts.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:42 pm

TimWall wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:21 pm
If we don't organise chess activities that keep the members paying their dues, how will the ECF survive?
If government regulations and social attitudes make face to face chess next to impossible to organise, perhaps it won't. There are however large sums locked up in various legacy funds. Other MInd Sports will be facing similar problems. The intersection of a major part of the current UK chess demographic with a section of the population acknowledged to be more at risk of a fatal outcome when infected is a serious problem as well,.

TimWall

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by TimWall » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:48 pm

You’re quite correct, David. The poll was really just to provoke a response among the Forum users. I would never expect to gain a majority for any progressive course of action from the regular posters here - but other people do read the forum, even if they don’t post. I’m trying to be the canary in the coal mine here, because if we don’t find a way for the ECF to remain relevant in these new and difficult times, the organisation as we know it may not exist much longer.
Please don’t be offended by my direct style - I am just sending a ‘Message in a Bottle’ and hoping it stirs people into taking action.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:04 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:22 pm
Since that time I think it's fair to say that playing by telephone, although still permitted, has been quietly discouraged.
By the mid 1990s, playing a telephone match ought to have been easier to organise. You could communicate by server if an internet connection was available or by mobile phone if it wasn't. I agree though that telephone matches disappeared just as the technology to make them smoother to run became available.

I've only ever taken part in one telephone match. I couldn't play as it was a grade limited National Club match, but I agreed to assist. As I recall, we took over the downstairs of one of our club officers. There were five players spread around the dining room and lounge with the phone in the kitchen. As well as myself and the host, there was also a local arbiter. There may have been another assistant. I can recall trying to avoid indicating what I thought of the move I was relaying.

I wouldn't have wanted to try to make it work over twenty boards rather than five.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 3543
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:32 pm

TimWall wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:21 pm
... online playing servers in 2020 have solved virtually all the problems faced by telephone matches in the 1950s-70s. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
The technical problems, yes. The human problem of coping with not having an opponent sitting opposite you, no.

It's been suggested elsewhere on this forum that the quality of play in online server games played at a fairly slow time limit, like the Online 4NCL, is noticeably lower for some players than they manage in OTB chess.

David Sedgwick
Posts: 5249
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:56 pm
Location: Croydon
Contact:

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:46 pm

TimWall wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:48 pm
You’re quite correct, David. The poll was really just to provoke a response among the Forum users. I would never expect to gain a majority for any progressive course of action from the regular posters here - but other people do read the forum, even if they don’t post. I’m trying to be the canary in the coal mine here, because if we don’t find a way for the ECF to remain relevant in these new and difficult times, the organisation as we know it may not exist much longer.
Please don’t be offended by my direct style - I am just sending a ‘Message in a Bottle’ and hoping it stirs people into taking action.
I'm not so much offended by your gratuitous insults as annoyed by them. I shall now withdraw from the thread.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:53 am

As far as this proposal goes, I'll give Tim credit for his initiative in proposing a possible solution even though it's not an idea I find immediately irresistible. There are several alternative ideas, using two boards and based on adapting the laws for blind players, which attract me more.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 3543
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:54 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:32 pm
It's been suggested elsewhere on this forum that the quality of play in online server games played at a fairly slow time limit, like the Online 4NCL, is noticeably lower for some players than they manage in OTB chess.
... and now there's an academic paper that comes to the same conclusion.

Jacques Parry
Posts: 131
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Jacques Parry » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:37 am

I have no wish to discourage this initiative, but perhaps the poll should include another option:
"No. I would have no objection to hybrid chess if I were confident that it was safe, but at present I am not."

Mick Norris
Posts: 10310
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:47 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:54 am
Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:32 pm
It's been suggested elsewhere on this forum that the quality of play in online server games played at a fairly slow time limit, like the Online 4NCL, is noticeably lower for some players than they manage in OTB chess.
... and now there's an academic paper that comes to the same conclusion.
Thanks for that Ian; lots of useful references to other studies, and lots of maths too; should satisfy all Forum readers :D

I've worked from home since 1999; I'd like to think I'm better at it now than then; the time saving in not commuting is the key to overall effectiveness
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Mike Gunn
Posts: 1014
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Mike Gunn » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:51 am

I think Tim's idea is worth a try. I worry not just about playing in a Covid-19 safe environment down at the local club but also the travelling to away venues. (I don't particularly want to spend an hour driving to a venue with other players in my car even if they are wearing masks.) Playing at one's own club premises represents a much more controllable environment in terms of social distancing and other precautions. This could be a stepping-stone towards returning to proper OTB chess later.

Has anyone found the SCCU bulletin issues with the telephone match problems? I scanned several but couldn't find anything.

Chris Fegan
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:31 am

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Chris Fegan » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:46 pm

Mike Gunn wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:51 am
I think Tim's idea is worth a try. I worry not just about playing in a Covid-19 safe environment down at the local club but also the travelling to away venues. (I don't particularly want to spend an hour driving to a venue with other players in my car even if they are wearing masks.) Playing at one's own club premises represents a much more controllable environment in terms of social distancing and other precautions. This could be a stepping-stone towards returning to proper OTB chess later.
Mike

I agree with you and I strongly suspect that all chess organisations and individuals need to seriously think about how we move forward in the months and years to come-things in the English chess world will not be returning to what they were in Feb 2020 and organisations including the ECF are facing major problems due to the massive disruption and uncertainty caused by the Covid-19 pandemic including financial threats and even closures.

I note that currently the connected poll to this thread suggests that most respondents to date are happy to wait for "normal OTB chess" to resume and without wishing to spread doom and gloom this may not be until 2022 if indeed ever.
Last edited by Carl Hibbard on Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Some quote adjustments.

User avatar
Adam Raoof
Posts: 2720
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:16 pm
Location: NW4 4UY
Contact:

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Adam Raoof » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:56 pm

I have agreed an event on 12 Sept at Golders Green, provisionally. Here are my thoughts;

Your temperature will be taken at the door, no entry if you have an elevated temperature
wearing masks at the board will be compulsory, so please wear them on entering the venue
maximum 80 players (usually 160)
One game per 6ft by 3ft table, 40 tables
Reduced to 4 sections in total, Open, Major U160, Intermediate U145 and Amateur U120
no spectators (non participants) at all - this also means when you have finished your game, do not congregate around another board to watch
Pairings posted online and outside the venue
No players Under 16, no parents
No seating in the halls
no payments on the day (all in advance by paypal or bank transfer, so no handling cash or cards)
I will offer players a free transfer if notified by XX because we could see a second wave at some point
hand gel provided at the arbiters desk
A one way system (sprayed on the floor in temporary paint) to reduce the flow
no refreshments so we can use both rooms for players - bring your own refreshments, and take your waste away with you
no handshakes before and after the games

At this point it is unclear whether government advice may change, so we are all in the same position, and it is harder for organisations like 4NCL (which has put aside over the board chess for this year) and one off major events like The British or Hastings. But my inclination is to try something, just to see if people want to play chess over the board.

I will wait a few weeks before doing anything concrete. I have dates in the diary until November, but at this point I am looking wintering abroad ;-)
Adam Raoof IA, IO
Chess England Events - https://chessengland.com/
The Chess Circuit - https://chesscircuit.substack.com/
Don’t stop playing chess!

Chris Fegan
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:31 am

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Chris Fegan » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:22 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:56 pm
I have agreed an event on 12 Sept at Golders Green, provisionally. Here are my thoughts;

Your temperature will be taken at the door, no entry if you have an elevated temperature
wearing masks at the board will be compulsory, so please wear them on entering the venue
maximum 80 players (usually 160)
One game per 6ft by 3ft table, 40 tables
Reduced to 4 sections in total, Open, Major U160, Intermediate U145 and Amateur U120
no spectators (non participants) at all - this also means when you have finished your game, do not congregate around another board to watch
Pairings posted online and outside the venue
No players Under 16, no parents
No seating in the halls
no payments on the day (all in advance by paypal or bank transfer, so no handling cash or cards)
I will offer players a free transfer if notified by XX because we could see a second wave at some point
hand gel provided at the arbiters desk
A one way system (sprayed on the floor in temporary paint) to reduce the flow
no refreshments so we can use both rooms for players - bring your own refreshments, and take your waste away with you
no handshakes before and after the games.
Adam

This sort of innovative and experimental approach is exactly what is needed in these uncertain times and the ECF as the national body must work with and support all sectors of the English chess community in trying new things. The worst possible response to the pandemic is that of the "chess ostriches" who basically say the pandemic will soon pass, a miracle vaccine will appear and we can go all back to our chess life as it was prior to lockdown in just a matter of months.

Chris

Nick Grey
Posts: 1838
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Could Hybrid events save English chess?

Post by Nick Grey » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:44 pm

2022 may be too pessimistic. But for some of us a chess break maybe good.

MRI Aug 2020. MAY find why my rating is low. :lol:

Eyes Oct 2020 No chess has helped. :)

No on poll.

Post Reply