ECF Fair Play Policy

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Matthew Turner
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed May 27, 2020 4:55 pm

Roger,
So, I take it you are in favour of the new policy then, since now a player will not automatically be banned by the ECF if they are flagged/banned by Lichess. It is only if their ECF games display a very high probability of cheating from a test using Ken Regan's software.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed May 27, 2020 5:45 pm

Matt - I'd need to read the new policy very carefully. In the example I instanced, even I can't be 100% sure which games resulted in the Lichess bar [and, therefore, whether they were ECF games or not] and so whether, assuming ECF are using Ken Regan's software to test only ECF games, they were susceptible to ECF appeal or not. My belief - because his results in the four ECF games were very poor - is that the Lichess bar followed from something else in which case presumably the new policy doesn't offer him the same ECF appeal opportunity.

Matthew Turner
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm

Roger,
I am not totally sure I understand your question, but I would assume
1. The 4NCL would adopt the ECF anti cheating policy
2. A player scoring 0.5/4 wouldn’t register on the Ken Regan software
3. Your player would be free to participate in the 4NCL or ECF competition (assuming they had an account with the appropriate provider).

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm
Roger,
I am not totally sure I understand your question, but I would assume
1. The 4NCL would adopt the ECF anti cheating policy
2. A player scoring 0.5/4 wouldn’t register on the Ken Regan software
3. Your player would be free to participate in the 4NCL or ECF competition (assuming they had an account with the appropriate provider).
Matt

I can't comment definitively on points 1 and 2 [although they sound entirely reasonable to me] but no, I'm afraid you're wrong on point 3. He was barred from the current 4NCL/J4NCL despite having a new account with Lichess.

Roger

Matthew Turner
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm

Roger,
I don’t speak on behalf of the 4NCL or the ECF, but obviously this is a new fair play policy, so I suggest that you contact the 4NCL to see if the situation has changed.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed May 27, 2020 6:39 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:29 pm
Roger,
I don’t speak on behalf of the 4NCL or the ECF, but obviously this is a new fair play policy, so I suggest that you contact the 4NCL to see if the situation has changed.
Matt

Well, if it has, and I thank you for the suggestion, it may come as some consolation to the junior in question although it won't totally undo the upset. Presumably there will be others in a similar position who won't realise - because any change hasn't been prominently displayed - that the situation has changed. And I hear anecdotally of one case where it would come as a posthumous pardon as the junior in question doesn't want to play chess any more.

Regards

Ian Thompson
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm
Roger,
I am not totally sure I understand your question, but I would assume
3. Your player would be free to participate in the 4NCL or ECF competition (assuming they had an account with the appropriate provider).
I'm afraid you're wrong on point 3. He was barred from the current 4NCL/J4NCL despite having a new account with Lichess.
My understanding of the ECF policy is that you're only banned from all ECF events if you're caught cheating in an ECF event.

If chess.com ban a player, you're ineligible to play in an ECF event on that platform because you haven't got an account. You're free to play in an ECF event run on lichess, or elsewhere, though.

It would be difficult for the ECF to effectively enforce a total ban on participating in all ECF events on all sites for cheating in non-ECF events. As far as I'm aware, even if a player has disclosed their real name on a site, there's no way of searching for it, so how would the ECF reliably know a player had been banned?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed May 27, 2020 7:40 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 pm

My understanding of the ECF policy is that you're only banned from all ECF events if you're caught cheating in an ECF event.
You may well be right. I sometimes fail to differentiate correctly between ECF and 4NCL [my apologies to anyone offended] so I should perhaps clarify that my understanding - and I can't be absolutely sure whether I asked the question directly at the time - was that it was a 4NCL ban rather than an ECF ban.

Matthew Turner
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed May 27, 2020 8:02 pm

Ultimately, I think the differentiation will become meaningless because all graded events will become ‘ECF events‘ and subject to the same the fair play rules. That will help organisers who won’t have to formulate their own rules.

Richard Bates
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Richard Bates » Thu May 28, 2020 6:05 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm
Matthew Turner wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:54 pm
Roger,
I am not totally sure I understand your question, but I would assume
3. Your player would be free to participate in the 4NCL or ECF competition (assuming they had an account with the appropriate provider).
I'm afraid you're wrong on point 3. He was barred from the current 4NCL/J4NCL despite having a new account with Lichess.
My understanding of the ECF policy is that you're only banned from all ECF events if you're caught cheating in an ECF event.

If chess.com ban a player, you're ineligible to play in an ECF event on that platform because you haven't got an account. You're free to play in an ECF event run on lichess, or elsewhere, though.

It would be difficult for the ECF to effectively enforce a total ban on participating in all ECF events on all sites for cheating in non-ECF events. As far as I'm aware, even if a player has disclosed their real name on a site, there's no way of searching for it, so how would the ECF reliably know a player had been banned?
Realistically even this (banned on eg.chess.com but not on events run on other sites) is a distinction without a difference. To be able to play in “official”/serious events purely determined by the site hosting them is hardly a tenable position.

For the policy to work there really needs to be discussion with the hosting sites to allow people to set up more than one user account - ie.one that is used for the purposes of competing against the host site client base and subject to their rules, and one which is only used to access events falling under the auspices of third party organisations (where the ONLY role of the site is as a host - other than eg. the provision of their anti cheating software as an aid to decisions made by the organiser, but offered without prejudice as to whether its judgements should be accepted or final). There could also then be the question of whether people should be required to adopt real names or not.

It seems to me that the ability of people being banned from eg. the 4ncl online, based on alleged offences committed whilst playing on lichess on a casual basis is one of the most unsatisfactory elements of the current situation. Especially when we know so little about the anti-cheating software and the ways one can or cannot potentially innocently fall foul of it.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu May 28, 2020 8:50 am

Richard Bates wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:05 am
For the policy to work there really needs to be discussion with the hosting sites to allow people to set up more than one user account - ie.one that is used for the purposes of competing against the host site client base and subject to their rules, and one which is only used to access events falling under the auspices of third party organisations (where the ONLY role of the site is as a host - other than eg. the provision of their anti cheating software as an aid to decisions made by the organiser, but offered without prejudice as to whether its judgements should be accepted or final). There could also then be the question of whether people should be required to adopt real names or not.

It seems to me that the ability of people being banned from eg. the 4ncl online, based on alleged offences committed whilst playing on lichess on a casual basis is one of the most unsatisfactory elements of the current situation. Especially when we know so little about the anti-cheating software and the ways one can or cannot potentially innocently fall foul of it.
I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that this idea is a complete non-starter.

At the ChessTech Webinar on Tuesday 26th May, hosted by John Foley, I had a discussion in the chat with Theophilus Wait of Lichess. He politely but firmly made it clear that Lichess would not countenance any such arrangement.

There are no signs whatsoever that Chess.com would be any more accommodating.

The ECF and the 4NCL can take control of their online events if they wish to do so. Or they can host them on Lichess or Chess.com. But they cannot do both.

The new ECF Online Fair Play Policy reflects that reality.

Matthew Turner
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu May 28, 2020 9:43 am

Richard,
I think you make valid points, but there are a couple of thing to bear in mind. Titled players are treated somewhat differently, but for the vast majority of players

1. You can pretty much set up as many accounts as you like
2. An account will be flagged for using computer assistance, so a player will still be able to access it and play games

I think the ECF fair play policy is a very sensible outcome given the circumstances.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:43 am
I think the ECF fair play policy is a very sensible outcome given the circumstances.
The ECF has surrendered control as to who is barred from their events. For an organisation so risk adverse to legal challenge that it won't even publish a list of its membership, is it not asking for trouble?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu May 28, 2020 9:58 am

The version of the Fair Play policy which David identified has today been superseded by a new version at
https://englishchessonline.org.uk/wp-co ... ACv2_1.pdf

Link subsequently edited to reflect comment below.
Last edited by Roger Lancaster on Thu May 28, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Fair Play Policy

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu May 28, 2020 10:08 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:58 am
The version of the Fair Play policy which David identified has today been superseded by a new version at
https://englishchessonline.org.uk/wp-co ... Cv2_1.pdfp
So it has. I had initially assumed that it was just a question of a link having been put on the front page of the ECF website, but it is indeed a revised document.

However, there is a problem with your link. It should be https://englishchessonline.org.uk/wp-co ... ACv2_1.pdf

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