The last of which is obviously very likely Unless they've been cheating really blatantly then 8 games really isn't very much of an evidence base at all.Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:15 amAgreed. There's a possibility now that the leader is excluded from the tournament because his chess.com account has been closed, but his results from the first 8 rounds stand because the Ken Regan analysis software says "not guilty", or at least "not proven".Mick Norris wrote: ↑Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pmI am just glad that I am not the one making the decisions
British Championship Congress 2021
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
I will start by saying that I am not involved in this event and have no knowledge of it other than what I have seen here. Therefore what I am saying is of a more general nature.
Firstly, there are two parts to the Regan test. The first can be carried out quite quickly but the second will normally take a day for the results to be known.
The first test would normally alert to the possibility of cheating taking place and additional scrutiny would follow. The second is more comprehensive.
It is therefore quite possible that a player who had been under suspicion for a number of rounds would only be found 'guilty' after a further game and after the more detailed test. In such a case there is absolutely no reason why earlier games would not then be recorded as a loss for that player.
The result given to each opponent would then need to be considered.
It is certainly annoying for all parties when the threshold is only crossed late in the tournament as so many players are affected by it. Remember it is not just that player's opponents who have 'suffered' but if a strong player has lost by foul means then their next opponent is playing someone stronger than they should, and so on.
When a case is proven late on then there is really no totally satisfactory way of resolving the resultant situation.
The organisers of any event affected in this way have difficult decisions to make. These decisions cannot please everyone.
It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?
In situations like these there are no easy answers.
Firstly, there are two parts to the Regan test. The first can be carried out quite quickly but the second will normally take a day for the results to be known.
The first test would normally alert to the possibility of cheating taking place and additional scrutiny would follow. The second is more comprehensive.
It is therefore quite possible that a player who had been under suspicion for a number of rounds would only be found 'guilty' after a further game and after the more detailed test. In such a case there is absolutely no reason why earlier games would not then be recorded as a loss for that player.
The result given to each opponent would then need to be considered.
It is certainly annoying for all parties when the threshold is only crossed late in the tournament as so many players are affected by it. Remember it is not just that player's opponents who have 'suffered' but if a strong player has lost by foul means then their next opponent is playing someone stronger than they should, and so on.
When a case is proven late on then there is really no totally satisfactory way of resolving the resultant situation.
The organisers of any event affected in this way have difficult decisions to make. These decisions cannot please everyone.
It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?
In situations like these there are no easy answers.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
"The organisers of any event affected in this way have difficult decisions to make. These decisions cannot please everyone.
It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?
In situations like these there are no easy answers."
Totally agree. Chess.com ban people on sometimes flimsy evidence and then score all their games as losses. I recently gained rating points as a previous opponent had been banned, but my loss to him/her was caused by my bad moves. At least Ken Regan's work is more convincing. Another problem is that if the lower-rated opponent wins, people get suspicious and everyone is entitled to have a good tournament.
I appreciate it is very difficult to get things right, but what I would really like is for ECF to be less secretive. They claim that it infringes people's privacy to even say there's an accusation, which I doubt. But ECF won't even say, "We had 50 complaints and we found 8 people guilty".
It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?
In situations like these there are no easy answers."
Totally agree. Chess.com ban people on sometimes flimsy evidence and then score all their games as losses. I recently gained rating points as a previous opponent had been banned, but my loss to him/her was caused by my bad moves. At least Ken Regan's work is more convincing. Another problem is that if the lower-rated opponent wins, people get suspicious and everyone is entitled to have a good tournament.
I appreciate it is very difficult to get things right, but what I would really like is for ECF to be less secretive. They claim that it infringes people's privacy to even say there's an accusation, which I doubt. But ECF won't even say, "We had 50 complaints and we found 8 people guilty".
Re: British Championship Congress 2021
Supposing White is cheating then it's quite subtly done. Stockfish considers that White gave away his opening advantage on move 15. after which the game was fairly equal for a long time, until Keith went wrong at move 48. Stockfish then considers White's 50th to be a mistake, had Keith not blundered by reply.IM Jack Rudd wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:03 pmWell, there was this game, which attracted a bit of comment elsewhere:
The "Swiss Gambit" of scoring ½/2 in the first couple of rounds is a nice touch too. White has made it to 6½/8 while only playing two titled players. Of course there aren't many in the event at all.
I'd also like to see how Mark Hebden managed to lose three times to low rated players.
How it's done, if it's being done, is therefore interesting. I'd guess that just using an engine as a blunder check would be a major boost. Certainly I'd be a much higher rated OTB player than I am if I didn't make some abysmal move somewhere in almost every game. I'd also have several wins against Hebden myself, instead of an unending string of zeroes
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Re: British Championship Congress 2021
Well, the leader has been disqualified now anyway...
https://chess-results.com/tnr569793.asp ... =30&snr=35
https://chess-results.com/tnr569793.asp ... =30&snr=35
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
I have requested that an arbiter be present at both my house and my opponent's house for my last round game. With the British Championship title at stake this seems eminently sensible for lots of reasons.
I have offered to foot the bill for this, and a local arbiter, John Ariss, had already volunteered for my end.
I have offered to foot the bill for this, and a local arbiter, John Ariss, had already volunteered for my end.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
Good luck Keith
Any postings on here represent my personal views
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
Thanks Mick
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
Keith, we know you can play. No one even THINKS you might be cheating. Same goes for Mark Hebden.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
It's the principle, Nick. My opponent and I should be treated equally. There should be an arbiter in both of our houses to oversee the game.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
In case any Arbiters in the London area would be willing to help out by travelling to Newham, then please email me - [email protected] or post on here.
The game would be very unlikely to go beyond about 9.30 pm this evening, and begins at 7.
The game would be very unlikely to go beyond about 9.30 pm this evening, and begins at 7.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
I believe the commentators thought White's winning idea was difficult to spot especially from a few moves earlier.
But how often is anyone below IM level, let alone a player unknown OTB except a handful of games in BUCA ten years ago, able to trade blow for blow with Keith and maintain equality in a long ending or near ending?
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
The chief arbiter, Shohreh Bayat, has kindly agreed to go to my opponent's house, and Arbiter John Ariss has agreed to go to mine, so whatever the result, there can be no accusations.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
For the record, I offered to go to Newham when I saw your post, but I learned that the superior arrangement which you mention had already been made.Keith Arkell wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:07 pmThe chief arbiter, Shohreh Bayat, has kindly agreed to go to my opponent's house, and Arbiter John Ariss has agreed to go to mine, so whatever the result, there can be no accusations.
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021
997 rating point difference on board 2. What are the odds?
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