British Championship Congress 2021

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:43 pm

I see there's coverage at
https://www.chessbomb.com/arena/2021-br ... ampionship

Is it live? If so doesn't that make it far too easy for players to take a quick look at what the Stockfish on chessbomb thinks of their position and what it recommends? Assume they take the obvious precaution of using a separate device and connection.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:51 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:43 pm
I see there's coverage at
https://www.chessbomb.com/arena/2021-br ... ampionship

Is it live? If so doesn't that make it far too easy for players to take a quick look at what the Stockfish on chessbomb thinks of their position and what it recommends? Assume they take the obvious precaution of using a separate device and connection.
Yeah, you had live coverage rather than say a 30 minute delay, and one camera rather than two. It was pretty clear that the current measures didn’t go far enough to stop the determined cheats. Lack of staff probably meant the qualifiers were off-camera for a 2nd year, and so there seemed a full range of players having blinders off-camera and then flopping spectacularly on camera.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:35 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:51 pm
It was pretty clear that the current measures didn’t go far enough to stop the determined cheats.
I was wondering whether the language of risk assessment comes into play. The risk is that the game is contaminated by players seeking external advice during play. Over the board face to face there are strong mitigations against this which aren't present to anywhere near the same extent with online play.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:41 pm

Well it’s a big enough pickle that the final round is being postponed 24 hours.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:33 pm

Maybe the powers that be should have made more effort to organise an OTB event, even if a limited one.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

David Sedgwick
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:13 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:33 pm
Maybe the powers that be should have made more effort to organise an OTB event, even if a limited one.
Such an event is of course taking place in October. Indeed the ECF August Newsletter, containing some more information about those Championships, dropped into my inbox a couple of hours ago.

The small number of entries for the ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge (see viewtopic.php?f=35&p=270055#p270055) seems to suggest that there would not have been an enormous amount of enthusiasm for an OTB British Championships at this time, at least if the Tournament Regulations had been similar to those for the County Challenge.

As it is, the ECF have the opportunity to review and alter those Regulations before October.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:29 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:13 pm
Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:33 pm
Maybe the powers that be should have made more effort to organise an OTB event, even if a limited one.
Such an event is of course taking place in October. Indeed the ECF August Newsletter, containing some more information about those Championships, dropped into my inbox a couple of hours ago.

The small number of entries for the ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge (see viewtopic.php?f=35&p=270055#p270055) seems to suggest that there would not have been an enormous amount of enthusiasm for an OTB British Championships at this time, at least if the Tournament Regulations had been similar to those for the County Challenge.

As it is, the ECF have the opportunity to review and alter those Regulations before October.
The slight downside appears to be those who qualified for the finals in various British Online competitions will be invited to compete in the October event. A slice of those probably cheated using engines to reach those online finals.

Wadih Khoury
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Wadih Khoury » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:59 pm

I don't see a downside: they will lose OTB if they can't maintain their level.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:16 pm

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:59 pm
I don't see a downside: they will lose OTB if they can't maintain their level.
Fair enough I suppose, but hopefully there will be a secondary way of entry for the players who didn't want to partake in the off-camera online qualifier hijinks and swerved the events. Perhaps based on high rating or something?
Last edited by Matt Bridgeman on Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mick Norris
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:06 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:55 am
From 11:00, to 12:00 and now to 13:00.
If a leader is removed from a tournament before it completes for "violating terms and conditions", what should be done with his or her previous results? Should they stand or should they be reversed? Whatever is decided will affect the final round pairings and possibly also the prize winners.
If you cheat in exams, you lose your previous results, so why would it be different in chess?

Or, are we saying that it's not cheating when it is "violating terms and conditions"?

I am just glad that I am not the one making the decisions
Any postings on here represent my personal views

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:22 pm

The issue is not really what you do with respect to the violator; you can just chuck him out of the tournament. The issue is what happens with respect to his opponents. In particular, the pairings they got are not the same as those they would have got had they not lost to him.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:03 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:13 pm
The small number of entries for the ECF Pre-Season Regional County Challenge (see viewtopic.php?f=35&p=270055#p270055) seems to suggest that there would not have been an enormous amount of enthusiasm for an OTB British Championships at this time, at least if the Tournament Regulations had been similar to those for the County Challenge.

As it is, the ECF have the opportunity to review and alter those Regulations before October.
The recent 4NCL Congress was a sell out of 130 entrants and required masks, but they were compulsory at the time. I can understand why the ECF didn't want the financial risk of trying to run something in Torquay, but the only major event in August, namely Tim Wall's Northumbria tournaments seem to be doing well for entries. What mask rules will be applied remains to be seen.

Milton Keynes is one of those difficult places from where I live that I wouldn't want to spend a week in a hotel there, nor would I want to commute every day for a week. Depending on what's also around in October, their mask rules might be a tiebreak on a decision to participate.

Nick Ivell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Nick Ivell » Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:25 pm

This is a complete joke, and goes to show what I have said all along: OTB is the only game in town - the only version we can take seriously.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:32 pm

"I don't see a downside: they will lose OTB if they can't maintain their level."

But, those who didn't qualify and think they were cheated, might view it as a downside. They might also think it's not worth playing in subsequent events and think, "I was cheated last time and nobody cared- should I play again? No."

Ian Thompson
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:15 am

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm
If you cheat in exams, you lose your previous results, so why would it be different in chess?
Certainty of being guilty is one important difference. You wouldn't be convicted of cheating in an exam without caught red-handed, so there's no doubt you're guilty. In online chess, you can be convicted based on circumstantial evidence alone.
Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm
I am just glad that I am not the one making the decisions
Agreed. There's a possibility now that the leader is excluded from the tournament because his chess.com account has been closed, but his results from the first 8 rounds stand because the Ken Regan analysis software says "not guilty", or at least "not proven".

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